LebGeeks

arithma

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot. … exing.html

Compatability? Do we really want to say that HTML is a contender with Flash for Compatability. Should we be always reminded that HTML is the worst case of compatibility our industry is suffering.

Scalability? Flash is a powerful platform, and HTML is only catching up. It is more suited to business applications in intranets, easier to develop with, provides higher designer/developer streamlined environment.

Seriousness: Most of the FWA sites are flash websites. Those are the highest earning websites out there. Get one of your sites on this list and you'll scale up into a multinational organization overnight.

I am enjoying the fact that they are fixing HTML with HTML5, making it more suited to its task. Don't trash the reason they are doing that.

Joe

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

Compatability? Do we really want to say that HTML is a contender with Flash for Compatability. Should we be always reminded that HTML is the worst case of compatibility our industry is suffering.

What does it mean HTML is not compatible?? Isn't the essence itself of building a web-browser getting to read HTML? And correct me if I am wrong, but today all major browsers (except our friendly Explorer friend) display a 100/100 respect of the HTML standards of the W3C.

So how can you say that HTML is not compatible?

When I talk about Flash's lack of compatibility I am talking about the limited amount of web browser you could reach (think of the iPhone, linux[1], console-based browsers, screen readers, ...). The number of these users should not be taken lightly, and even though in most cases it can be overlooked, it must be done knowingly.

[1] I know that flash-readers exist for many linux distros out there. I use it on my Ubuntu box. I was merely pointing out that some linux users will restrict themselves from using flash technologies because they are proprietary. Don't forget that Youtube exists now in HTML5.

Kassem

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

Unfortunately, IE is the most widely used browser around the globe, if it doesn't render HTML the way it's supposed to, then HTML loses alot of its compatibility. On the other hand, Flash is cross-platform and can be viewed from all major browsers the same way. Which makes it a solution for HTML's lack of compatibility.

By the way, please stop saying the Flash is CPU-extensive. Just look at the technology used today, an i7 Quad-Core should not have any trouble with rendering Flash. That's where technology is going: SUPER powerful processors and loads of RAM.

Seriousness: Most of the FWA sites are flash websites. Those are the highest earning websites out there. Get one of your sites on this list and you'll scale up into a multinational organization overnight.

I couldn't have said it better. Those sites on FWA are mere masterpieces of art. Trust me, a website of FWA quality would astonish the visitor and theres a huge chance that he WILL ask others to check it out. At least that's what happens on many forums I go to.

One more thing: if HTML5 was a threat to Flash Adobe wouldn't have fully supported HTML5 in Dreamweaver CS5, you really need to check it out. The guys at Adobe are not stupid, they know what they're doing and they know that Flash is not going to die any time soon. Hopefully, AS4.0 would make it even easier to develop Flash applications/websites, and then HTML5 could kiss Flash's ass :)

arithma

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

@rahmu: Only recently have the industry agreed on HTML and made browsers compatible with it. Currently they're struggling again with HTML5 especially with the new acclaimed video tag and the encoding behind it.

HTML and Flash being on the same openness, and in the same sort of penetration, what would you use?
In my case that would still be Flash, but that's for personal reasons. HTML annoys me personally, and feels hackish - you don't really know if you're marking data or presentation at times. You will disagree but that's my take.

en I talk about Flash's lack of compatibility I am talking about the limited amount of web browser you could reach (think of the iPhone, linux[1], console-based browsers, screen readers, ...). The number of these users should not be taken lightly, and even though in most cases it can be overlooked, it must be done knowingly

You can not counter argument the limited-ness of a platform with the limited-ness of another. My take on what you said is that iPhone itself is the limited platform. As for screen/console-based browsers: if you ate your argument, you would have been countering the use of images too?

Yet again, I am not a Flash fan boy. My hopes for the tool (the language and the authoring tools) is that:
- Adobe will go all the way with making the platform open (which they have started well enough so far)
- They will compile into native web applications (rendering all the arguments mute) much like Google is doing with its GWT.
- The community will not vanish and is already much more enjoyable to be in than fighting with CSS hacks, or worrying about how things look across browsers, or actually being slow due to Javascript (which is inherently slower than Actionscript) - JIT may counter this argument, but it's not conformant across browsers, while Flash is.

Kassem

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

HTML annoys me personally, and feels hackish - you don't really know if you're marking data or presentation at times.

That is one of the main reasons why I hate working with HTML. I'm trying to do an HTML simplified version of my portfolio website right now and it sucks! Some stuff work in Google Chrome but don't in IE and that's just sad...

pikatore

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

aritha, you abandon a huge amount of people who haven't got flash on their computers, and people couldn't be bothered downloading it.

And IE (6 and under) is widely known for it's shitty HTML/CSS support, agreed. It's however a browser usually on what we would today consider low end computers, and many of those computers could crap themselves playing a youtube video, let alone a full on flash site.

Ayman

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

aritha, you abandon a huge amount of people who haven't got flash on their computers, and people couldn't be bothered downloading it.

I don't totally agree with you on this point because I am sure most of the end users today have flash installed on their PCs, because today when people buy their PCs with software already installed flash comes pre-installed already. And pertaining to the users who don't have flash well I think most probably they don't even really use the internet regularly on their most probably low end PCs, and for those who don't want to install flash I think it is their problem and they will have to tolerate the consequences of not installing such a popular plugin used around the world, the same thing for those who wish to turn off Javascript in their browsers, they have chosen that so they have to bare the results, as simple as that. 

That is one of the main reasons why I hate working with HTML. I'm trying to do an HTML simplified version of my portfolio website right now and it sucks! Some stuff work in Google Chrome but don't in IE and that's just sad...

This what differentiates a good developer from another on the level of HTML and CSS, the more you are able to make it cross browser compatible and make it look the same on most of the browsers, the more skilled you are. Good luck :)

Last edited by Ayman (April 20 2010)

Kassem

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

or those who don't want to install flash I think it is their problem and they will have to tolerate the consequences of not installing such a popular plugin used around the world, the same thing for those who wish to turn off Javascript in their browsers, they have chosen that so they have to bare the results, as simple as that.

You've said it all in the above statement :)

Joe

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

I guess everything's been already said. Here's to summarize everything:

* Flash lets you reach higher level of aesthetics. However it is costly in resources.
* Flash ensures a single rendering and allows the designer to not worry about the output in different browsers. Yet there's an non-negligible amount of browsers that cannot play it.
* Flash still has troubles when it comes to SEO, yet Google has made huge improvements there recently.
* A general feeling amongst web developers that Flash should be but one of the tools in your arsenal. The decision to use it or not should be made by taking into accounts many factors.

Some final words I have to say about the subject:
* HTML5 could be a threat to Flash, as long as Flash remains a closed-source secret. The people at Adobe are aware of that and I wouldn't be surprised to witness, like arithma said, more openness behind Flash code.
* HTML is easier than you think. It can become pretty hackish but only when not respecting the standards. Writing HTML the "right way", might not be intuitive at first, but it ensures perfect cross-browser compatibility (you know, the ones who do respect standards, not the wandering Explorers ...).

* One last thing. It is not the first time I had this outburst on the forum, and I will keep saying it:
As of 2010, a i7  processor is NOT considered standard. No debate about that. This whole need for buying the latest gear only to keep up with technology is a shame. It comes from programmers to 'lazy' to optimize their code for lower requirements (Vista, I'm talking about you).

As a designer, your job is to reach the widest audience possible. Yes, an i7 processor would play your Flash animation without any problems. Hell, my core duo plays flash almost perfectly (slight overheating I admit). But even then, my core duo at 1.83GHz with 1GB of DDR RAM is still considered today top-middle range. What about ARM or Atom (netbooks) chips that are everywhere? What about old Pentium chips that are still running?

Joe

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

for those who don't want to install flash I think it is their problem and they will have to tolerate the consequences of not installing such a popular plugin used around the world, the same thing for those who wish to turn off Javascript in their browsers, they have chosen that so they have to bare the results, as simple as that.

As a web designer, your job is not to punish them or tolerate them. It is more understanding who they are, why are they doing so, and most importantly do you want to reach them ?

Once again, a website like Wikipedia should strive to reach everyone. It is the essence of the website and its main strengths factor.

An artist portfolio cannot abandon Flash just because some lunatics refuse to use under the pretext it's not open source.

As you see: know your audience, and know how to talk to them.

pikatore

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

HTML annoys me personally, and feels hackish - you don't really know if you're marking data or presentation at times.

That is one of the main reasons why I hate working with HTML. I'm trying to do an HTML simplified version of my portfolio website right now and it sucks! Some stuff work in Google Chrome but don't in IE and that's just sad...

With all due respect, for a seasoned HTML/CSS coder, your site should appear identical in Safari based browsers, Firefox and IE 8+ from start to finish. If not, you aren't coding to markup validation standards, and you should review your methods.

My sites never end up diverging with different browsers because I am mindful of the importance of standardised markup. Worst case scenario is that I place in a alternative CSS file for older IE browsers, with minimal adjustments. It's not hard when you know how to code not just creatively, but well relative to validation.

This combined with using a 960 grid semantics framework? You can pump out good looking and organised websites faster than you can imagine.

Last edited by pikatore (April 20 2010)

pikatore

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

For those who don't want to install flash I think it is their problem and they will have to tolerate the consequences of not installing such a popular plugin used around the world, the same thing for those who wish to turn off Javascript in their browsers, they have chosen that so they have to bare the results, as simple as that.

Those two things aren't the same. Turning Javascript off is an action you have to undertake, whereas installing flash is (by default) something you have to do.

I know for a fact that OEM computers and retail sold PCs back in the UK generally don't have flash pre-installed on them, for whatever reason I don't know.

The attitude that someone has to deal with the 'consequence' of being unable to see your site because they didn't download and install a popular plugin? That isn't what I'd call the best kind of attitude to have. And it's an attitude most internet users would be confused by, as ultimately, they just want it to work.

Last edited by pikatore (April 20 2010)

pikatore

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

For the record, I don't dislike flash. In fact, I appreciate it as a dynamic and great addition to a functional website.

But my attitude is that flash is built to enhance websites, not be the website. You lose all the advantages that HTML/CSS provide, and as a result you have to take up the slack.

Sure, have a video or a cool animation or even a nav bar (as long as you provide an XML sitemap for the search engines), but don't shun HTML/CSS unless you really are prepared to compensate for the disadvantages on every single flash site you do.

Ayman

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

his whole need for buying the latest gear only to keep up with technology is a shame. It comes from programmers to 'lazy' to optimize their code for lower requirements (Vista, I'm talking about you).

Beautifully said, I think hardware manufacturers want hardware intensive software in order to keep making more hardware and selling new hardware, it is sad actually but technology these days is driven by business. What programmers can do is try to optimize their code as much as possible, but the big giants like Microsoft can't be controlled.

Joe

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

Interesting link about the subject.

http://knol.google.com/k/contadgreen-di … 01feyr3/3#

For those of you too lazy too read, the author argues that because of its simplicity , jQuery is a better alternative to Flash for drop-down menus, form validations, tab panels, ...

Flash is still the best at more complex graphics like video or 3D renderings.

Kassem

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

Very nice article rahmu, there are other interesting articles on that site as well. Might be worth reading them. Thanks for sharing.

Kassem

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

BlackBerry Lebanon

That's a clear demonstration of when "Flash-Gone-Bad". It is those crappy sites that are ruining the whole Flash reputation.

FAIL!!

pikatore

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

BlackBerry Lebanon

Oh god no.

Ayman

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

BlackBerry Lebanon

That's a clear demonstration of when "Flash-Gone-Bad". It is those crappy sites that are ruining the whole Flash reputation.

FAIL!!

OMG it looks so awful! And I find the idea of the design really stupid and primitive when it comes to this website. Next year they may be getting the next Lebanese web award, who knows... super FAIL!

Last edited by Ayman (April 22 2010)