LebGeeks

rtp

Member

Image mapping V.S Flash

so which is better to use?

i dont get why people dont use image mapping more? it is nice

i read someplace never use image mapping for navigation yet i dont get why

so anybody has some good info why shouldnt i use image mapping?
i think i can do a better animation and stuff with flash but i was told not to use flash for navigation as well lol ...

hmm i think i can have the same effect with z-index... so which one is best to use?

Kassem

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

lol are you kidding me? I still believe my web development teacher is wasting our time trying to explain about image mapping and frames in HTML... the way I see it she should've just explained the basic tags which are used in each and every website and then move to more interesting stuff like CSS, JavaScript and PHP.

But you cannot compare image mapping to Flash, it's a whole different world there. Flash is much better than HTML imo. But of course each has its right place to use. You cannot use flash for everything. But when you're creating a portfolio page or a website for an artist/entertainer/small business then Flash is your friend :)

Ayman

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

lol are you kidding me? I still believe my web development teacher is wasting our time trying to explain about image mapping and frames in HTML... the way I see it she should've just explained the basic tags which are used in each and every website and then move to more interesting stuff like CSS, JavaScript and PHP.

But you cannot compare image mapping to Flash, it's a whole different world there. Flash is much better than HTML imo. But of course each has its right place to use. You cannot use flash for everything. But when you're creating a portfolio page or a website for an artist/entertainer/small business then Flash is your friend :)

Agree, actually Image maps have specific use and cannot be compared to something as flash as they can't be alternatives to flash anyways, in addition one should note that heavy use of image maps, iframes, and tables for layout has become outdated.

So IMO, the context of comparing Image Map and Flash is not effective or relevant.

rtp

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

http://www.tricky.site90.net/
check the banner on the left
i can do it flash and add an mouseover animation and stuff like that
or i can leave it image mapping
or i think i can have the same effect with z-index

flash is more good looking but aint compatible unless the browser supports flash and stuff... so for backward compatiblity flash isnt used as menu...

hmm i just got a thought 
i can do a flash navigation then on error i can create a dynamic div and contain in it the navigation image mapping i have now 

thanks for the revelation

samer

Admin

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

Image mapping or flash for navigation? Are you guys out of your mind?

First, flash: the links are not followed by search engines - so unless SEO is of no importance to you (which is rarely the case) don't even think about having a flash navigation menu. Furthermore, mobile phones like the iPhone have no support for flash so you should always have an alternative. One time I absolutely had to use a flash menu, so I provided an alternative navigation menu in the footer.

Second, image maps: they were never intended to be used for navigation menus and should not be used as such if you want your code to be standards-compliant.

The correct way (at least, according to the W3C guidelines) is to use a combination of unordered lists + list items and CSS properties to manipulate their style. Check this forum's navigation menu as an example:

<ul> 
	<li id="navindex"><a href="index.php">Index</a></li> 
	<li id="navuserlist"><a href="userlist.php">User list</a></li> 
	<li id="navsearch"><a href="search.php">Search</a></li> 
	<li id="navprofile"><a href="profile.php?id=2">Profile</a></li> 
	<li id="navadmin"><a href="admin_index.php">Administration</a></li> 
	<li id="navpm"><a href="message_list.php">Messages</a></li> 
	<li id="navlogout"><a href="login.php?action=out">Logout</a></li> 
	<li id="navextra1"><a href="http://www.lebgeeks.com/forums/extern.php?action=active&type=rss">RSS Feed</a></li> 
</ul>

rtp

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

Image mapping or flash for navigation? Are you guys out of your mind?

First, flash: the links are not followed by search engines - so unless SEO is of no importance to you (which is rarely the case) don't even think about having a flash navigation menu. Furthermore, mobile phones like the iPhone have no support for flash so you should always have an alternative. One time I absolutely had to use a flash menu, so I provided an alternative navigation menu in the footer.

Second, image maps: they were never intended to be used for navigation menus and should not be used as such if you want your code to be standards-compliant.

The correct way (at least, according to the W3C guidelines) is to use a combination of unordered lists + list items and CSS properties to manipulate their style. Check this forum's navigation menu as an example:

<ul> 
	<li id="navindex"><a href="index.php">Index</a></li> 
	<li id="navuserlist"><a href="userlist.php">User list</a></li> 
	<li id="navsearch"><a href="search.php">Search</a></li> 
	<li id="navprofile"><a href="profile.php?id=2">Profile</a></li> 
	<li id="navadmin"><a href="admin_index.php">Administration</a></li> 
	<li id="navpm"><a href="message_list.php">Messages</a></li> 
	<li id="navlogout"><a href="login.php?action=out">Logout</a></li> 
	<li id="navextra1"><a href="http://www.lebgeeks.com/forums/extern.php?action=active&type=rss">RSS Feed</a></li> 
</ul>

z-index it is ^_^

rtp

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

wait z-index wont work lol

ok i need to change the design lol

Kassem

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

Image mapping or flash for navigation? Are you guys out of your mind?

First, flash: the links are not followed by search engines - so unless SEO is of no importance to you (which is rarely the case) don't even think about having a flash navigation menu. Furthermore, mobile phones like the iPhone have no support for flash so you should always have an alternative. One time I absolutely had to use a flash menu, so I provided an alternative navigation menu in the footer.

Who said that Flash is not SEO compatible? Search Engines can index flash "pages", this is not new. Plus why do I need to create websites for the iPhone? It's not like the whole world revolves around Apple and its "God-Like" products...
If you're serious about web design and development and you're rejecting to develop using flash, trust me you will be left behind...

arithma

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

If you need to use flash as a menu, it should be done using (recommended by adobe) swfobject which takes in a fall back div in case the plug-in is not installed. The fall back div should be a navigation menu totally operable in plain HTML and indexable by Google. This same concept can be used to include any kind of content in an HTML page and have it animated in an SWF.

Search engines can't index flash pages efficiently and this is a real sore point that the flash developer must be aware of.

Blind conformance to w3c standards is a little bit overrated. Sometimes it's easier to go with what just works (even if the markup underneath doesn't exactly reflect the information, who cares really?)

Apple's actions are all suspicious as it even recently banned a Flash-to-native-iPhone App compiler. They are actively trying to take the rug from under Adobe.

Still, a developer's concern is not to fight the platform, so you got to provide an alternative for those users (iPhone) otherwise your app is broken - unless it's a whole lot of work and your target audience are not exactly the tapping-finger kind.

xterm

Moderator

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

Image mapping or flash for navigation? Are you guys out of your mind?

First, flash: the links are not followed by search engines - so unless SEO is of no importance to you (which is rarely the case) don't even think about having a flash navigation menu. Furthermore, mobile phones like the iPhone have no support for flash so you should always have an alternative. One time I absolutely had to use a flash menu, so I provided an alternative navigation menu in the footer.

Who said that Flash is not SEO compatible? Search Engines can index flash "pages", this is not new. Plus why do I need to create websites for the iPhone? It's not like the whole world revolves around Apple and its "God-Like" products...
If you're serious about web design and development and you're rejecting to develop using flash, trust me you will be left behind...

This made me giggle.

Ayman

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

the correct way (at least, according to the W3C guidelines) is to use a combination of unordered lists + list items and CSS properties to manipulate their style. Check this forum's navigation menu as an example:

Code:

<ul>
    <li id="navindex"><a href="index.php">Index</a></li>
    <li id="navuserlist"><a href="userlist.php">User list</a></li>
    <li id="navsearch"><a href="search.php">Search</a></li>
    <li id="navprofile"><a href="profile.php?id=2">Profile</a></li>
    <li id="navadmin"><a href="admin_index.php">Administration</a></li>
    <li id="navpm"><a href="message_list.php">Messages</a></li>
    <li id="navlogout"><a href="login.php?action=out">Logout</a></li>
    <li id="navextra1"><a href="http://www.lebgeeks.com/forums/extern.php?action=active&type=rss">RSS Feed</a></li>
</ul>

Agree 100%

If you're serious about web design and development and you're rejecting to develop using flash, trust me you will be left behind...

Man I don't really agree, you don't have to develop in flash to be serious in web design, the thing is that flash has it's uses and has it's drawbacks, some stuff can be done in flash like other stuff can't, and I have to say that flash is not as flexible when it comes to SEO as HTML is, that's what I know.

And speaking of being left behind, I still don't grasp this idea of those who don't develop in flash will be left behind, IMO with the advent of HTML5, CSS3 and JQuery flash development is in danger and not the other way around. :)

Last edited by Ayman (April 10 2010)

rolf

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

Flash is for a niche of high-bandwidth, heavily multimedia websites.
I've seen flash do things such as stick someones face picture on the face of a movie character in a movie clip, and other incredible things. Flash is for things such as movies, logo animations, etc...
From a programmer's perspective, JQuery is not endangering flash, just putting it back where it belongs :-)
From an artist's perspective, Flash development is different, timeline-based and with a specialized GUI (by Adobe), and I can see some professionals sticking to that, even with jQuery rising in importance.

Last edited by rolf (April 10 2010)

Kassem

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

Man I don't really agree, you don't have to develop in flash to be serious in web design, the thing is that flash has it's uses and has it's drawbacks, some stuff can be done in flash like other stuff can't, and I have to say that flash is not as flexible when it comes to SEO as HTML is, that's what I know.

I did not say Flash is good for every situation. You should be using Flash where there is no heavy database work going on in the back-end. When you're purpose is to display stuff in a good looking way, then Flash is right for the task.

And speaking of being left behind, I still don't grasp this idea of those who don't develop in flash will be left behind, IMO with the advent of HTML5, CSS3 and JQuery flash development is in danger and not the other way around. :)

I strongly doubt HTML5, CSS3 and jQuery will take Flash's place. You can never have the flexibility and potentials of what can be done in Flash using the prior mentioned technologies. Flash is on a totally different level when it comes to animation and displaying multimedia. And with Flex getting even more popular, RIA development using Flash will gain a greater portion of the market share.

From a programmer's perspective, JQuery is not endangering flash, just putting it back where it belongs :-)
From an artist's perspective, Flash development is different, timeline-based and with a specialized GUI (by Adobe), and I can see some professionals sticking to that, even with jQuery rising in importance.

I RARELY use the timeline to develop Flash projects. Everybody starts with the timeline, but with experience Actionscript 3.0 is all you need to compile SWF's. Check out FlashDevelop, it is an open-source editor and compiler which is not by Adobe. It does not have a GUI but it's still great for developing Flash apps and websites.

samer

Admin

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

Who said that Flash is not SEO compatible? Search Engines can index flash "pages", this is not new.

As arithma said, search engines can't index flash pages efficiently.

Plus why do I need to create websites for the iPhone? It's not like the whole world revolves around Apple and its "God-Like" products...

This is why. Also you might want to actually use an Apple product if you haven't already.

If you're serious about web design and development and you're rejecting to develop using flash, trust me you will be left behind...

I don't refuse to,I just find more elegant/efficient ways of designing websites. Ways that don't flood the CPU and leak RAM when I'm on OS X.

rolf

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

Flash is on a totally different level when it comes to animation and displaying multimedia.

Flash is also on a totally different level when it comes to crashing your browser, freezing your computer, locking the content, saturating you connection, slowing you down, not guaranteeing accessibility and complicating maintenance.

HTML5, CSS3 and jQuery were never meant to replace flash, just to offer some of the eye candy you get in flash, without having to use flash, with all it's disadvantages.

Flash remains the king for multimedia. Text or image transitions (fades, etc...) are not considered multimedia.

P.S: I'm not really criticizing what you said, don't take this as an attack. I'm just taking advantage of your words to support my opinion.

Last edited by rolf (April 11 2010)

arithma

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

I did not say Flash is good for every situation. You should be using Flash where there is no heavy database work going on in the back-end. When you're purpose is to display stuff in a good looking way, then Flash is right for the task.

Flash applications are more fit for back-end services than other web technologies. AJAX is only a catch up.

The other thing Flash has over HTML technologies is immediate portability across browsers (only very few issues exist).

Flash animations, while abused usually by designers bandwidth-wise, don't have to be bandwidth consuming at all. They can even be used as a solution for bandwidth capped targets due to its generative capabilities graphically (drawing with code). Hell, a demo scene is evolving for the flash platform.
For the same animation, flash has the smallest size between a video, a gif, and a flash

One note is that Flash is really superior when it comes to the tools for the authoring of a website - designers are very comfortable with it, and programmers only need to read the names off the different objects: No middle men between designers and programmers that have to cut and assemble pages. Perhaps if Flash Player dies, Adobe will make Flash compile to Javascript and HTML. The authoring environment (with a huge community behind it) will not simply vanish.

A peculiar use (while Google avoids Flash like the plague when it can) is Google's use of flash for uploads (don't know if they still do) and their use of flash graphs in Google Analytics. Those use cases are worth reviewing for a grasp of flash relevance.

The culture behind Flash programming and art is truly a harmonious machine that mixes them in ever evolving ways. I find it a truly active environment to be involved in. Other fields are plagued with cross-browser compatibility concerns instead.

There is no doubt that Flash has the upper hand when it comes to high levels of user engagement. You can live without flash, but you will be left out of the upper artistic strata :). There are workarounds around most of the nuances about SEO and the "markup is content" paradigm.

In short, you should not quickly run to the judgement that flash is the kill-them-all solution, and on the other hand you'd be wrong to quickly dismiss it as a secondary player in the game.

Last edited by arithma (April 11 2010)

Kassem

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

@ arithma: Amen bro!

pikatore

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

Flash should be used sparingly, or for clear artistic purposes. Too many sites here are all flash when they don't need to be.

Joe

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

I am a believer that Flash animations on a website should be avoided as much as possible. They're heavy ressource hoggers and won't work on slow connections.

However

This is sometimes a small price to pay. Don't forget that more often than not, a website has a corporate value. Some brands heavily rely on visual identities and will always value aesthetics over information. While a bank would be crazy to develop its website in Flash, what about luxury brands or artists portfolio?

As a web developer, you should always be aware of your client's needs. Does he want a flashy bling image or does he want to get the informations out there? A social network website could never be done with a Flash menu, that would prevent access to a lot of people out there, but Dior or Yves Saint Laurent need it for their luxury image.

A final point would be that accessibility should not be overlooked. You want to minimize as much as possible restricting access to your website. iPhones, IE6 and other restricting browsers should be taken into account. Console-based browsers (like lynx) are more used  than you think. Accessibility is also a problem: more and more handicaped people (understand blind people) are using Screen Readers and other assistive technologies to access the web. The last two technologies cannot get Flash, Javascript or CSS. Think about that.

The best way to ensure optimal accessibility remains adherence to w3c standards for HTML writing (except for IE, but that's a whole other issue).

Bottom-line: always keep in mind who is your targeted audience and how are they accessing your website.

Kassem

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

This is sometimes a small price to pay. Don't forget that more often than not, a website has a corporate value. Some brands heavily rely on visual identities and will always value aesthetics over information. While a bank would be crazy to develop its website in Flash, what about luxury brands or artists portfolio?

As a web developer, you should always be aware of your client's needs. Does he want a flashy bling image or does he want to get the informations out there? A social network website could never be done with a Flash menu, that would prevent access to a lot of people out there, but Dior or Yves Saint Laurent need it for their luxury image.

That is exactly what everyone hating on Flash is missing! Flash is not for developing websites for banks or social websites or anything that is heavily database-driven. Although Flex is making RIA development in Flash very easy and efficient (especially when using AMF3 to send data to PHP and retrieve the data which does that using binary format). Now I'm not saying that every website should be developed using Flash or Flex, but sometimes it's very smart to use Flash and animate your content/pages.

In e-Business, a website without animation is very dull and useless. It simply won't be able to invite the user to browse the site, enjoy his stay, and come back again and again. But when a visitor visits a website which is developed by a guru Flash developer, he will most likely stay there for a few minutes and even tell his friends about it and invite them to take a look. How does that influence the brand name presented on the site? Well, it simply gives this brand an edge over other competitor brand names that are simply using a dull HTML/CSS page which doesn't give them an enjoyable experience while browsing the site.

Also, let's say a web developer or an artist wants to present his portfolio on the web. What's better than using Flash to develop this portfolio? Flash is simply the best technology for this purpose. It is very easy to create animated image galleries, mp3 players, video players, product display lists, carousels, accordion menus... and much more. And keep in mind that you can develop your portfolio to be viewed in full-screen as well. Maybe, all of those mentioned can be done using other technologies like jQuery/AJAX/CSS3... etc. But how much time and lines of complex code would it take to develop those apps and transitions/animations using those technologies? Why not simply take the shortcut (which happens to be the right path as well) and do it in Flash?

P.S: right now I'm downloading a 4 hours video series that would teach me jQuery and will also download another 5 hours video series which teaches JavaScript on a more advanced level, plus I already have a video series which teaches AJAX as well. Although I'm really a huge fan of Flash, that doesn't mean I'll be using it exclusively. I strongly believe that a web developer (especially a freelancer) should be proficient in as many technologies as he/she could grasp; you simply do not know what you might be required to do for a client.

Joe

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

@Kassem: I do not absolutely agree with everything you said. CSS is a real art. Take a look at this website. Mastering this level of CSS is not always easy, and is definitely worth it. Do not ever call it dull.

I think you do not need to learn pure Javascript, jQuery is more than enough (you already know programming basics anyway). AJAX can be thought of as a client-side interaction with the database. It's like PHP without having to reload the page. You'll have fun with it.

pikatore

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

@Kasseem

There are a whole load of open source utilities that can fulfill all the flashy, modern feel you'd want from a website without having to resort to flash. And if you're a CMS website designer like myself, you'll find that there's a plugin for everything (which is basically just existing Jquery/Javascript/PHP gadgets packaged for easy CMS integration, nothing more).

Flash is bulky at times, processor intensive, and as rahmu mentioned, can be hell for compatibility and maximising your audience, not to mention the pain in the ass it presents from an SEO perspective. Also, scalability isn't naturally built into a flash website unless you take the extra time to wire it up that way.

"But when a visitor visits a website which is developed by a guru Flash developer, he will most likely stay there for a few minutes and even tell his friends about it and invite them to take a look."

I think you overestimate the ability of a website to wow people enough to actually get others to look at it for the eye candy.

All web technologies (mostly) have their place, but flash should fill a certain niche, and NOT be the main tool in any respectable web designers arsenal. You should be a designer first, a flash artist second.

Of course, artist portfolios and luxury brands have a tendency to go all flash, but how many websites fall into those two categories?

http://webdeveloperplus.com/jquery/21-b … w-plugins/

And this is my favorite slideshow system:

http://smoothgallery.jondesign.net/

Then you've got more basic image enlarging apps like lightbox, thickbox, etc

Believe me, it's a much better way to roll. And in the global web design standards, it's really where you should look at heading.

Last edited by pikatore (April 19 2010)

arithma

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

Flash Headless Player.
Flash Going Open Source.
Tamarin.

Everything that Flash does, it does better than other technologies (when HTML tried to do what Flash does, it will burn your CPU).

Joe

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

All web technologies (mostly) have their place, but flash should fill a certain niche, and NOT be the main tool in any respectable web designers arsenal. You should be a designer first, a flash artist second.

My thoughts exactly, love how you put it :-)

pikatore

Member

Re: Image mapping V.S Flash

Everything that Flash does, it does better than other technologies (when HTML tried to do what Flash does, it will burn your CPU).

But flash can't do what other technologies can achieve, so your statement doesn't end up being so good.

There are gaping holes Flash cannot fill, like the question of SEO, compatibility, and scalability (and isn't exactly a light resource user). Flash simply isn't designed for those things. It is not designed to, and should not replace the role of HTML, because you will miss important objectives that Flash simply is unable to achieve.

I'm being nice about this too. Back in the UK, in my early freelancing career, a flash designer would be called upon to fill a role. Full site flash designers would be considered amateurs at best, and wouldn't be taken seriously. There simply isn't a market for them globally, for a good reason. You need to look at the IMPORTANT factors in good design and a good website, and if you're going to insist on keeping on going full flash, be prepared to face the consequences for it's limitations.

Last edited by pikatore (April 19 2010)