LebGeeks

xterm

Moderator

Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

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ali.koubeissi

Member

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

The essence of the article: Apply common sense.

Why is it so hard to apply common sense? As a developer, you should know the ins and outs of the platform you're choosing. Uneducated choice in the sense of choosing HTML5 because you don't know Sliverlight or Flash is moronic at best. This is directly related to the requirements at hand.

It was a good read as I usually enjoy hanselman's posts, but I'm kind of sick comparing HTML5 with Flash or Sliverlight and the plathora of proof of concept HTML5 mini applications to show that Flash is dead.

xterm

Moderator

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

The essence of the article: Apply common sense.

Why is it so hard to apply common sense? As a developer, you should know the ins and outs of the platform you're choosing. Uneducated choice in the sense of choosing HTML5 because you don't know Sliverlight or Flash is moronic at best. This is directly related to the requirements at hand.

It was a good read as I usually enjoy hanselman's posts, but I'm kind of sick comparing HTML5 with Flash or Sliverlight and the plathora of proof of concept HTML5 mini applications to show that Flash is dead.

Well said Ali.

arithma

Member

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

/ranting.
People in the IT field are mass murderers. They love homicide. Look up how many times, and how early up the flash platform has been expected dead, for what many reasons, and then research what it is taking to make a dent in its share in the media outlet (coalition between Apple and Microsoft, each pushing their own products and trashing Adobe's).
Silverlight is without any doubt much more powerful than pure HTML, but it deploys to less places. That's the gist of the blog post.
HTML5 is more widespread and maybe the more natural progression for more programmers (they already know Javascript and HTML).

Why should a sane developer who has experience in C# prefer programming in Javascript?
Note that the usual SEO arguments don't apply to Ajax applications since making ajax applications behave in an SEO friendly way is just as hard as one that is based on silverlight or flash.

Scott raises an important point: What's the deal with all the full page Silverlight/Flash applications? This is becoming the overwhelming trend and obscuring the other use cases.

samer

Admin

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

since making ajax applications behave in an SEO friendly way is just as hard as one that is based on silverlight or flash.

Check this out: http://code.google.com/web/ajaxcrawling/
@Kassem you might find this helpful as well. This is the thing you asked me about in the meeting.

rolf

Member

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

Reminds me from someone who I worked for (freelance)... but never get paid, but that's not the point, the point is: one of the first thing he asked is "do you use HTML5??"
I hate it when they do that.

Kassem

Member

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

Great article by Hanselman, as always. You guys probably know how much I used to love Flash (and I still do actually). It is my zone of comfort, and normally I used to go the Flash-y way to avoid HTML/CSS/Javascript that I'm not really good at. This is exactly what ali.koubeissi talked about which makes me a moron, and I take that with pleasure :)

But, eventually, I thought I shouldn't be taking the easy way out by going for a Full-Flash website everytime I struggle with Javascript. After all, Flash is not suitable for each and every situation, it has its use cases but it can never replace HTML pages. And well, thankfully I'm much more comfortable with the other technologies now (HTML/CSS/Javascript) and I could better choose between the two platforms.

Check this out: http://code.google.com/web/ajaxcrawling/
@Kassem you might find this helpful as well. This is the thing you asked me about in the meeting.

Dude, thanks a lot! Will definitely check it out.

Last edited by Kassem (July 2 2011)

jsaade

Member

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

since making ajax applications behave in an SEO friendly way is just as hard as one that is based on silverlight or flash.

Check this out: http://code.google.com/web/ajaxcrawling/
@Kassem you might find this helpful as well. This is the thing you asked me about in the meeting.

This is the same for flash, ie, you will need to take html snapshots and send them back.

in any case, it really is  a project decision.
- HTML5 has vector graphics but lacks a proper mainstream editor.
- HTML5 cannot be really used on a project intended for the Mena region as the majority of the users still use IE7-8
- Flash websites are coming in media and animation websites. Agencies tend to sell websites heavy on animations and page transitions [check thefwa.com]. Lacking the proper design tool to do them in javascript, flash offers the best solution in terms of timeline animations so the website designer can really see how the animation progresses.
- Although debatable but on a regular user's computer/laptop, javascript animations are really slow when compared to flash. Flash is a browser plugin, the graphics run on the hardware (well most of them).
javascript is as fast as a user's browser is, animation processing is made on the CPU taking a lot of resources.
- I have never worked with silverlight but I would expect it to be the same as flash.

@rolf:
it is very common, i have designers viewing some kind of jquery based transitions and asking if we can have the same HTML5 effect.

arithma

Member

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

And what about the designer tools. We're blabbering like blinded fools. Are we all drinking down the coolaid without fucking thinking?
Am done with one dimensional thinking.

xterm

Moderator

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

And what about the designer tools.

That's quite important.

Silverlight has Expression Blend.
Flash has well, Flash.

Does HTML5 (Not the markup, but the entire specs that come with it) already have anything similar?

ali.koubeissi

Member

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

I think we're comparing apples to oranges when it comes to designer tools. The beautiful thing about HTML5 is that it doesn't require any designing tool at all. Yes you can use any drawing tool to draw something and then translate it to whatever you want. Lately, I've been experimenting with drawing the design I have in mind on a sheet of paper and then write the html/css/js and you have no idea how satisfying the process is. It's .... magical *tear*.

xterm

Moderator

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

I think we're comparing apples to oranges when it comes to designer tools. The beautiful thing about HTML5 is that it doesn't require any designing tool at all. Yes you can use any drawing tool to draw something and then translate it to whatever you want. Lately, I've been experimenting with drawing the design I have in mind on a sheet of paper and then write the html/css/js and you have no idea how satisfying the process is. It's .... magical *tear*.

Designer tools, for graphic and web designer ali. Not for developers.

Separation of roles is key to a successful and maintainable project.

Kassem

Member

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

I think we're comparing apples to oranges when it comes to designer tools. The beautiful thing about HTML5 is that it doesn't require any designing tool at all. Yes you can use any drawing tool to draw something and then translate it to whatever you want. Lately, I've been experimenting with drawing the design I have in mind on a sheet of paper and then write the html/css/js and you have no idea how satisfying the process is. It's .... magical *tear*.

Designer tools, for graphic and web designer ali. Not for developers.

Separation of roles is key to a successful and maintainable project.

In that case, what about the Adobe Suite? (Photoshop, Illustrator, Fireworks)

ali.koubeissi

Member

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

I understand. What's wrong with Photoshop, Paint.Net and the like .. ? I understand they're not as "integrated" as Expression Blend and Flash, but they're the tools for the graphic and web designer. Isn't that the case?

I'm sorry if I'm just running my mouth but I'm trying to understand the "designer tools" point.

jsaade

Member

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

I understand. What's wrong with Photoshop, Paint.Net and the like .. ? I understand they're not as "integrated" as Expression Blend and Flash, but they're the tools for the graphic and web designer. Isn't that the case?

I'm sorry if I'm just running my mouth but I'm trying to understand the "designer tools" point.

these are great for creating  static pages. ie Layouts, how the page looks like.
what if the designer wants to design the transition from page to page or the animation speed of the button rollover?

xterm

Moderator

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

I obviously wasn't clear enough sorry. The question we should ask ourselves is, where does our role as developers end? What is the limit of what we can do, what's the limit of what we SHOULD do?

Arguably, we could say that we can just get an image of the layout as well as its parts in a folder from a designer and integrate/implement everything ourselves. That is by far the most robotic work that a developer may do. UI Related tasks should be delegated to appropriate roles, of which the rare and scarce role of a "Web Designer" comes into place.

Tools like Flash, Flex IDE and Expression Blend (not suite, just blend) provide the designer with the ability to build interactive front-ends with little to no help from the developer whatsoever.

samer

Admin

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

As a designer, you should know what sort of limitations the person who will code the layout might face. It is therefore only natural for you to learn how to code properly. There is no excuse for a UI designer not to know how to write proper markup and CSS.

Dark_angel

Banned

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

I think UI is highly related to what type of information you want to represent.

It is data that dictates what type of UI can be implemented and what type of technologies you should use.

xterm

Moderator

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

It is data that dictates what type of UI can be implemented and what type of technologies you should use.

I'm sorry but we're in 2011 and that is in no way correct. Data is data, UI is UI. The mechanism that brings these two together should not be a factor.

xterm

Moderator

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

As a designer, you should know what sort of limitations the person who will code the layout might face. It is therefore only natural for you to learn how to code properly. There is no excuse for a UI designer not to know how to write proper markup and CSS.

That's the edge where roles meet. The UI designer should have the necessary tools that allow him to easily create fully fledged and interactive front-ends. Sadly, those do not exist in the scope of HTML as a whole bar the use of Dreamweaver-like editors.

As opposed to expression blend for example that is just too damn powerful that allows a designer to easily create interactive frontends changing every small piece of the layout the way he deems fitting, knowing zilch about the underlying platform (well, almost zilch).

Dark_angel

Banned

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

It is data that dictates what type of UI can be implemented and what type of technologies you should use.

I'm sorry but we're in 2011 and that is in no way correct. Data is data, UI is UI. The mechanism that brings these two together should not be a factor.

Show me your Work experience in this domain and what is your specialty please before I elaborate more my statement.

xterm

Moderator

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

Show me your Work experience in this domain and what is your specialty please before I elaborate more my statement.

What?

Dark_angel

Banned

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

Show me your Work experience in this domain and what is your specialty please before I elaborate more my statement.

What?

see, your answer 'what' indicates your lack of experience in such domain. Please, at least do some research so you can backup your statements.

Quiz #1 : n-tier layers.

Do some research about it and come back. Better, trust me.

rolf

Member

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

Yes and no. Some technologies are better at some type of data then others. But all web technologies strive to deal with all sorts of data.

Dark_angel

Banned

Re: Resource - html5, flash, silverlight

To better understand the link between data and UI.

Compare Linkedin.com UI to Digg.com UI.

Do u guys notice the difference of the UI structure ?