LebGeeks

Joe

Member

Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

It is common knowledge that when it comes to web design. IE is the devil, and has been for the past decade. The internet browser that revolutionized our interaction to the web, has always been a developer's nightmare. The reason why is because lack of conformity to the official standards given by the w3c (a web consortium charged of implementing HTML, the language of the web). Up until its version 7, Internet Explorer showed no interest at all in this consortium, relying on a near monopoly and making any so called good practice in web development a major faux pas in web design.

Could it be that Microsoft is afraid of the rapid raise of competitors like Firefox or Chrome? It would seem that they are now reacting to the subject and abiding to the rules with their newest version of IE, Internet Explorer 9.

After scoring an impressive 95/100 on the Acid test, a test that determines the relevance to xHTML rules, IE9 has just been declared the most conformant to HTML5, the upcoming version of the language. The new series of tests, conducted by the w3c itself, showed that IE9 follows HTML5 better than Firefox 4, Chrome, Opera and Safari. Good news? Let's hope so. I'm getting tired of designing my web pages many times. I'm ashamed of knowing all these "IE hacks", illegal workarounds that make your page look fine on IE. Microsoft conforming and abiding. Now that's news.

This article wouldn't be complete without mentioning that HTML5 is still not production ready, and in order to facilitate its adoption, the w3c urges developers not to use it in their websites yet.

Georges

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

Even if IE9 (or any later versions) scores the highest points in every comparison between IE and FF/Chrome, I'll never be using IE as a default browser.
Imagine that if you want to add an addon to IE, you have to download a .exe file and install it on your PC.

Raficoo

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

Even if IE9 (or any later versions) scores the highest points in every comparison between IE and FF/Chrome, I'll never be using IE as a default browser.
Imagine that if you want to add an addon to IE, you have to download a .exe file and install it on your PC.

same :/

I'll always stick to FF and Chrome.. IE is too messy to handle even with that high score... lol I remember back in the days how most people here used IE since FF wasn't popular back then. The only reason why most people use FF now here(In Lebanon to say) is that every1 will say "It's good" without any detail(same as how Graphics card with more RAM is better ;) )

Xsever

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

Imagine that if you want to add an addon to IE, you have to download a .exe file and install it on your PC.

SHAME ON THEM! It's 2010!

Last edited by Xsever (November 2 2010)

J4D

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

SHAME ON THEM! It's 2010!

Its 2010 ! the computer should turn on by itself when it feels that i want to use it !

As for the browser thing, im sure that FF is not far behind in the scoring, FF has too much more perks that make it more lovable than IE. I'm still loyal to the FF sticker i have on the lappy ... :)

saeidw

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

I can easily imagine IE9 or some later version being technically superior to FF or Chrome (hey, anything can happen, right?). For me the deal breaker is two things:

1. IE is closed-source, I will NEVER be allowed to look at its code.
2. IE only runs on Windows which, coincidentally, is also closed-source

So, I'm not free to use IE in the same way I'm free to use Firefox because with Firefox, I have the freedom to study it, modify it, and redistribute it, and I can do that on Windows, Linux, and Mac OS X.

So in my opinion, no matter how advanced IE gets, Firefox will always be a better browser.

Joe

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

I can easily imagine IE9 or some later version being technically superior to FF or Chrome (hey, anything can happen, right?). For me the deal breaker is two things:

1. IE is closed-source, I will NEVER be allowed to look at its code.
2. IE only runs on Windows which, coincidentally, is also closed-source

So, I'm not free to use IE in the same way I'm free to use Firefox because with Firefox, I have the freedom to study it, modify it, and redistribute it, and I can do that on Windows, Linux, and Mac OS X.

So in my opinion, no matter how advanced IE gets, Firefox will always be a better browser.

I love you.

Georges

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

So in my opinion, no matter how advanced IE gets, Firefox will always be a better browser.

Exactly. I don't need a high score. I need a browser that i KNOW how to use -- Or should i say, I need a broswer that WORKS.

As for the browser thing, im sure that FF is not far behind in the scoring, FF has too much more perks that make it more lovable than IE. I'm still loyal to the FF sticker i have on the lappy ... :)

I betrayed the FF community now. I'm using Chrome. I find it much better and faster.
In addition, Chrome extensions are becoming more interesting than ever.

The only reason why most people use FF now here(In Lebanon to say) is that every1 will say "It's good" without any detail(same as how Graphics card with more RAM is better ;) )

SO True... Whenever i'm on a different computer than mine, I always install FF from the USB drive (Please note that i don't even use IE to download FF) and set it to the default browser.
I also replace all shortcuts of IE on the desktop and start menu with FF shortcuts... :)

Kassem

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

SO True... Whenever i'm on a different computer than mine, I always install FF from the USB drive (Please note that i don't even use IE to download FF) and set it to the default browser.
I also replace all shortcuts of IE on the desktop and start menu with FF shortcuts... :)

Yup, that makes two of us! But I usually install Google Chrome though, after a long lecture about IE being the devil and Google Chrome being the most user friendly and fastest browser out there. :)

xterm

Moderator

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

You guys are in for a big spanking tomorrow, I'm going to bed now.

kareem_nasser

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

I wont judge lets test IE9 by ourselves and then start the flaming.

Bassem

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

I'm waiting to use IE9 before I form an impression.

In any case, for the masses who don't know about alternative browsers, IE9 should vastly improve browsing and safety.
And developers can finally let go of the hacks and tricks they've had to use for years.

Too bad it doesn't work on Windows XP, which still occupies a large amount of computers out there.

Kassem

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

Too bad it doesn't work on Windows XP, which still occupies a large amount of computers out there.

Exactly. We're not criticizing IE version 9. According to recent tests, it shows great improvement. The problem is with older versions (mainly IE6 and IE7) that are still widely used by internet users who do not care or even do not know about alternative browsers. Those users will most likely never even think of upgrading to IE9 in the first place. Therefore, the problem will persist, at least for a few years to come.

arithma

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

Can't we design a virus that will kill IE6/7/8 (hey they're full of security gaps I hear) and won't allow you to install anything other than IE9 (from the IE family). Oh, and an automatic updater. We'll be doing the world a huge favor. Hey, you can even imagine yourself a middle age hero slaying the evil dragon that has been harassing the village girls (AKA web developers).
I wrote the above paragraph just to end it with the last 4 words.
Since there's nothing to add to the discussion, let's turn on the flamethrowers?

xterm

Moderator

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

Exactly. We're not criticizing IE version 9.

I've seen nothing in this topic but criticism on IE 9.

I'll never be using IE as a default browser.
Imagine that if you want to add an addon to IE, you have to download a .exe file and install it on your PC.

That is your prerogative of course. What's up the executable file thing? You make it sound as if you never install any native application. Isn't Chrome or FF executables? FYI, a native application will always run faster than an interpreted one.

I'll always stick to FF and Chrome.. IE is too messy to handle even with that high score..

Again, that is your prerogative, but how did you figure that IE 9 is going to be too messy to handle. I'm very interested in your assessment.

As for the browser thing, im sure that FF is not far behind in the scoring, FF has too much more perks that make it more lovable than IE. I'm still loyal to the FF sticker i have on the lappy ... :)

Not a single browser is remotely close to handling the rendering of video that IE9 is currently doing. FF is way too far behind in that matter. From an end-user perspective, what exactly would you care about HTML5 other than the fact that you don't need to install a plugin to run video within the browser? If you're interested in this, go check out the MIX10 conference, i believe i have it in the programming forum somewhere.

1. IE is closed-source, I will NEVER be allowed to look at its code.

Have you looked at FF's code or Chrome's code?

2. IE only runs on Windows which, coincidentally, is also closed-source

IE also runs on OSX, which coincidentally is also closed-source, why isn't that a big issue as well?

So, I'm not free to use IE in the same way I'm free to use Firefox because with Firefox, I have the freedom to study it, modify it, and redistribute it, and I can do that on Windows, Linux, and Mac OS X.

This is something that i fail to understand, not just in this topic but in the OpenSource herd in general. Is it just the fact that you CAN study it, modify it and redistribute it that is appealing? Or is it because you HAVE done so.

Exactly. I don't need a high score. I need a browser that i KNOW how to use -- Or should i say, I need a broswer that WORKS.

The majority of internet users are proof enough that the browser works. If you can't make it work then, you probably should see what's wrong. If you're too stubborn to even give IE9 a chance, then that's totally up to you.

SO True... Whenever i'm on a different computer than mine, I always install FF from the USB drive (Please note that i don't even use IE to download FF) and set it to the default browser.
I also replace all shortcuts of IE on the desktop and start menu with FF shortcuts... :)

I think there's something deeper than your hatred towards IE here. I can't figure it out.

--

This final note i kept it towards the end, simply because I don't want to seem like i'm being harsh or anything. I'm pro evolution, I love seeing how applications evolve, but i don't just follow the herd or just deny myself the joy of an application just because its closed source or because its Microsoft branded. Heck, I'm even writing this post from FF and i deal with open source technologies all the time.

You guys need to keep an open mind about things. Yes, FF is great, yes Chrome is great, yes Open Source is great, but always remember that you can find great applications everywhere.

Be open.

arithma

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

Third party exe files are dangerous. IE, Chrome, Firefox are reputable. A random guy making a random plugin can be quite a hassle for a system administrator with mediocre level user base.

xterm

Moderator

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

Third party exe files are dangerous. IE, Chrome, Firefox are reputable. A random guy making a random plugin can be quite a hassle for a system administrator with mediocre level user base.

IE, Chrome and Firefox aren't the only executable people download. Regardless, when you install a plugin on firefox or chrome do you go over the entire source before downloading it? What if there were mischief within the plugins you're downloading?

You're taking the exact same risk.

I think not.

Georges

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

I'll never be using IE as a default browser.
Imagine that if you want to add an addon to IE, you have to download a .exe file and install it on your PC.

That is your prerogative of course. What's up the executable file thing? You make it sound as if you never install any native application. Isn't Chrome or FF executables? FYI, a native application will always run faster than an interpreted one.

I won't take a risk of downloading an .exe file ot my computer just to add a simple feature in IE.
Plus, have you ever seen the size of those executables... I tried once to download a simple extension to add to IE and it was around 7 MB... Would it be more than 500 KB on FF or Chrome...
----

1. IE is closed-source, I will NEVER be allowed to look at its code.

Have you looked at FF's code or Chrome's code?

2. IE only runs on Windows which, coincidentally, is also closed-source

IE also runs on OSX, which coincidentally is also closed-source, why isn't that a big issue as well ?

So, I'm not free to use IE in the same way I'm free to use Firefox because with Firefox, I have the freedom to study it, modify it, and redistribute it, and I can do that on Windows, Linux, and Mac OS X.

This is something that i fail to understand, not just in this topic but in the OpenSource herd in general. Is it just the fact that you CAN study it, modify it and redistribute it that is appealing? Or is it because you HAVE done so.

I didn't, but i might do. Others did it and made great products based on it (Such as Flock Browser, and Songbird Media Player).
Any doubts about the power behind using FF Source Code ?

Exactly. I don't need a high score. I need a browser that i KNOW how to use -- Or should i say, I need a broswer that WORKS.

The majority of internet users are proof enough that the browser works. If you can't make it work then, you probably should see what's wrong. If you're too stubborn to even give IE9 a chance, then that's totally up to you.

The broswer works, not the way i expect it to work. And i can't do a thing about it. With Chrome, i can easily find any feature i want. It's fast and highly customizable.
For example, why do i need more than 15 menu options when i Right-Click on a webpage... And where the hell are the shortcuts i used to use on Chome. I can't find any useful one on IE.

SO True... Whenever i'm on a different computer than mine, I always install FF from the USB drive (Please note that i don't even use IE to download FF) and set it to the default browser.
I also replace all shortcuts of IE on the desktop and start menu with FF shortcuts... :)

I think there's something deeper than your hatred towards IE here. I can't figure it out.

There You Go... :)
--

Heck, I'm even writing this post from FF and i deal with open source technologies all the time.

See. If you like IE that much, why don't you switch to it. :)

You guys need to keep an open mind about things. Yes, FF is great, yes Chrome is great, yes Open Source is great, but always remember that you can find great applications everywhere.

Just because we're used to have these GREAT applications for 1000 L.L. ... Adobe is great, will you ever want to buy the CS5 suite for 2000+ dollars ? - What about Visual Studio ? SQL Server ? Microsoft Office...

Be open.

Yes, and use Chrome.

Joe

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

This thread is not about liking or hating IE. There's no such thing as "the best" browser, to each his own preferences. What this thread is aimed at web developers, telling them the good news that IE is going to conform. Which is a great thing. From my perspective IE's mishap had gotten to a point where it's a "conform or die". I guess they're conforming. And according to w3c, they're being better than Mozilla, Google, Apple and Opera at that. Is it too hard to recognize good work?

MrClass

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

Well IE is not bad at all (when it displays the design properly). I do have IE nightmares and actually IE is one of the reasons why I hate website design. Hope all above news are correct.

xterm

Moderator

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

I won't take a risk of downloading an .exe file ot my computer just to add a simple feature in IE.
Plus, have you ever seen the size of those executables... I tried once to download a simple extension to add to IE and it was around 7 MB... Would it be more than 500 KB on FF or Chrome...

Is there less of a risk of downloading a random extension on FF or Chrome? Unless you download the source and go over the entire extension line by line, your argument is void concerning an executable.

What are you basing your facts of 7MB vs 500KB on ? Are we comparing a media heavy extension versus a plain utility? Or did you manage to find the same extension on both browsers where one is over 1000% more in size?

----

I didn't, but i might do. Others did it and made great products based on it (Such as Flock Browser, and Songbird Media Player).
Any doubts about the power behind using FF Source Code ?

I'm not here to doubt Open Source. I've constantly said OSS is a great initiative and we've benefit alot from it. Based on what you said i can only assume that you're choosing FF over IE because others do. Yes IE pre 9 so far were problematic, but why exactly you have chosen FF and totally disregard the upcoming version of IE is beyond me. Re-read Rahmu's original post, then go check the previous topics concerning the IE9 Preview and how you were laughing about it not running well on Acid tests and the lot and you'll find that there's a lot of moot points that are being mentioned in this topic.

The broswer works, not the way i expect it to work. And i can't do a thing about it. With Chrome, i can easily find any feature i want. It's fast and highly customizable.
For example, why do i need more than 15 menu options when i Right-Click on a webpage... And where the hell are the shortcuts i used to use on Chome. I can't find any useful one on IE.

I have nothing to say about this, this is relative and i agree with you.

There You Go... :)

I see nothing of relevance, sorry.

See. If you like IE that much, why don't you switch to it. :)

I don't see the world as Black or White. Sorry Georges.

Yes, and use Chrome.

Irrelevant, and out of context, "Be open" is combined with the entire final note.

xterm

Moderator

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

Is it too hard to recognize good work?

Obviously it is. I'm always seen as playing the devil's advocate but people just won't broaden their vision a bit. When i read such replies in other topics as well all i can think about is Techcism (I just came up with that word) which is racism for technologies.

Power to google!
Power to Apple!
Power to Open source!
Power to XYZ!

Death to Microsoft!
Death to Anything that i don't use!

Though it's ok, I'm not here to preach, I just want to understand what all these facts are based on.

Kassem

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

@xterm: Please re-read the original post by rahmu please. We're not discussing whether IE works or not, we're discussing the fact that it's a total nightmare when trying to get your design work on it as a WEB DEVELOPER. What does a user care whether he's using IE or Chrome or FF? He doesn't, just wants to view the website and get done with it. On the other hand, what does a web developer care about IE or other browsers? He does and he should! Why? Because he wants his design to work exactly the same cross browsers without having to do all sorts of hacks to make it work on IE. Can you deny that this is how things are in the web development industry? I don't think so. So yes, IE is problematic and the fact that IE9 follows standards is amazing news for web developers (but it doesn't really change a thing for normal users!).

I do agree with you on the fact that it's absurd that some people hate Microsoft simply because its software are not open source. That's their own policy, if we do not like it then we're free not to use their software. The whole Open Source idea is largely over-rated. I cannot remember that I've ever looked into a software's source code to change anything about it. Free software is nice, OSS doesn't really make a difference to me. My point is, if that particular software (whether it's open or closed source) doesn't do exactly what I want it to do, I could either search for an alternative or create my own, simple!

On a personal note, although I hate IE, that doesn't mean I hate Microsoft. In fact, I LOVE Microsoft because of the great work they've done to accomplish something as great as ASP.NET MVC is. But just because I like Microsoft, that doesn't mean I should say "All MS products rock!", no they don't. Windows Vista sucks, Windows 7 is much better. ASP.NET WebForms is a mess, ASP.NET MVC is awesome! IE6 & 7 are a nightmare, IE8 and 9 are a great advancement, you get the picture...

Last edited by Kassem (November 3 2010)

xterm

Moderator

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

@xterm: Please re-read the original post by rahmu please.

Kassem, i understand what you're saying. As i've mentioned previously i'm not commenting on rahmu's original post, i'm commenting on how everyone is bashing IE9. Just take a look.

Concerning your remaining points, they are all valid to me.

arithma

Member

Re: Internet explorer 9 or when Microsoft abides to the w3c

Firefox extensions work within the security context of Firefox (installation through day to day work, they are written in Javascript as far as I know, and their security is controlled). A random EXE that installs on top of internet explorer is a nightmare. I probably won't download a suspicious installer. But if I were an IT I would be twitching already. YMMV.
That's the only thing I have against IE in principle. Otherwise it's all subjective preference.