LebGeeks

Tigerheart.Hackers

Member

We're Not Allowed To...

The Nabs here. First off, I apologize for Ninja's post. He was really pissed off the internet, so he wrote what he wrote, but he didn't mention the full story. Our numbers didn't add up, and there was way more cost to barely cover, not even make profit. I'm overwriting his post with mine, and I really don't want to discuss this in public. Nuclear, nothing but respect for you, dude or dudette, would be glad to chat with you sometimes and show you how it could get that low a price theoretically, with all the figures and everything. You know, how we planned it, before we got a reality shock injection. Nice job with the facts, unquestionably correct. Keep up the good work, and Ninja will get the yelling of a lifetime for posting this. It was totally uncalled for, not cool, and not professional, and some might have already guessed, definitely left a black dot on the Tigerheart Hackers' profile. Oh, The Nabs is an alias. We go by nicknames here. People started using that with us, and we found it cool, and loved it. Our clients call us by our nicknames... Adds a bit of light humor to stressful work. Later days, everyone, and again, sincerest apologies for Ninja's dumbass dambassness

Last edited by Tigerheart.Hackers (January 26 2008)

7aRami

Member

Re: We're Not Allowed To...

mmm and Who's "The Nabs"?
and do you have an idea how did he make it possible to lower prices down to 5000 L.L ?

Last edited by 7aRami (January 26 2008)

nuclearcat

Member

Re: We're Not Allowed To...

Never i will believe in such bullshit... Internet NEVER will be real for home customers (except they are in some university campus), less than $10.
There is thing called ARPU. To explain in simple words - it is average user profit for ISP. Each port, wireless point, cable need some amount of maintenance per year. Even in countries where is backbone bandwidth cheap like dirt (cheapest ISP bandwidth it is around $10/Mbit/month), major part will take cost of equipment, NEW technologies research (like cable ISP's in USA researching DOCSIS 3.0, Verizon researching FiOS), personnel salaries (and yeah, in countries where is internet cheap, salaries of tech's and managers damn high).

In Lebanon ARPU is high, because of damned electricity(a lot of expenses for batteries, UPS, generators), improper city infrastructure (no access for underground communications, no interbuilding connections, no infrastructure for cabling in houses), improper installations (more than 80% UTP Cat5 cables sold in Lebanon is steel instead copper, or even if copper it is too thin, most of "techs" who installing just UTP cable not crimping them well, and there is no proper humidity protection, as result also need a lot of maintenance), local issues, when we try to install in building wireless base station (it is just box on the wall and 3 antenna), we proposed to few people there free internet, and few hundred of bucks for building. They agree, and after one month they say - ouf, u are doing too much money, so next month all building u have to provide free internet and payment increased to few thousands. It is not a joke. And cause there is no proper law, we had to rearrange our tech's and search for new place for basestation urgently. It is also causing extended expenses.

Backbone cost remain in Lebanon SAME price. It is just not going lower, plus Ogero just telling "yes, yes, bukra, bukra", and not installing upgrades of backbone. And price is higher more than 100 times than in cities similar to Beirut.
Result: Lebanese users can have 128Kbps for $33. Thats it.

Now Ogero using their governmental power and doing competition with ISP's. Sure ISP's had to dump prices just to not loose ALL customers. As i know MOBI, WIGO who tried to implement new technologies now in deep trouble, because their marketing plan just broken. They have same expenses, but new player on market.
In Beirut the only chance for private companies is wireless, because underground cabling owner by Ogero, and they dont let anyone even put there their fiber with reasonable price. Plus backbone also monopolised by Ogero. So only one way other ISP's have - wireless. And wireless not best thing, it is for now built for rural areas with small population density. Plus Lebanon one of the most difficult countries for wireless, because of sea, high level of humidity, terrain structure (mountains, it's not flat).

So NO WAY for 5000LL/mo for each customer. Till this city become more modern.
Sure here sometimes appearing guys, who found investor, and they wash investor brain, that they can share 1 Mbps for 1000 customer and make superlow price or superfast internet. They work fine 1-6 month(till they have free bandwidth, and they can suck money from somewhere), then disappearing. Or bankrupcy, or investor selling network to get at least some money.

Last edited by nuclearcat (January 26 2008)

Tigerheart.Hackers

Member

Re: We're Not Allowed To...

Original post edited. Please check above.

Last edited by Tigerheart.Hackers (January 26 2008)

nuclearcat

Member

Re: We're Not Allowed To...

My MSN nuclearcat [a.t.] nuclearcat.com
Feel free to add me... and talk. Please give reference to lebgeeks, because if i dont know why person adding me, i am usually not so friendly :-)

<samer : removed " @ " symbol>

WizaRd

Member

Re: We're Not Allowed To...

Never i will believe in such bullshit... Internet NEVER will be real for home customers (except they are in some university campus), less than $10.
There is thing called ARPU. To explain in simple words - it is average user profit for ISP. Each port, wireless point, cable need some amount of maintenance per year. Even in countries where is backbone bandwidth cheap like dirt (cheapest ISP bandwidth it is around $10/Mbit/month), major part will take cost of equipment, NEW technologies research (like cable ISP's in USA researching DOCSIS 3.0, Verizon researching FiOS), personnel salaries (and yeah, in countries where is internet cheap, salaries of tech's and managers damn high).

In Lebanon ARPU is high, because of damned electricity(a lot of expenses for batteries, UPS, generators), improper city infrastructure (no access for underground communications, no interbuilding connections, no infrastructure for cabling in houses), improper installations (more than 80% UTP Cat5 cables sold in Lebanon is steel instead copper, or even if copper it is too thin, most of "techs" who installing just UTP cable not crimping them well, and there is no proper humidity protection, as result also need a lot of maintenance), local issues, when we try to install in building wireless base station (it is just box on the wall and 3 antenna), we proposed to few people there free internet, and few hundred of bucks for building. They agree, and after one month they say - ouf, u are doing too much money, so next month all building u have to provide free internet and payment increased to few thousands. It is not a joke. And cause there is no proper law, we had to rearrange our tech's and search for new place for basestation urgently. It is also causing extended expenses.

Backbone cost remain in Lebanon SAME price. It is just not going lower, plus Ogero just telling "yes, yes, bukra, bukra", and not installing upgrades of backbone. And price is higher more than 100 times than in cities similar to Beirut.
Result: Lebanese users can have 128Kbps for $33. Thats it.

Now Ogero using their governmental power and doing competition with ISP's. Sure ISP's had to dump prices just to not loose ALL customers. As i know MOBI, WIGO who tried to implement new technologies now in deep trouble, because their marketing plan just broken. They have same expenses, but new player on market.
In Beirut the only chance for private companies is wireless, because underground cabling owner by Ogero, and they dont let anyone even put there their fiber with reasonable price. Plus backbone also monopolised by Ogero. So only one way other ISP's have - wireless. And wireless not best thing, it is for now built for rural areas with small population density. Plus Lebanon one of the most difficult countries for wireless, because of sea, high level of humidity, terrain structure (mountains, it's not flat).

So NO WAY for 5000LL/mo for each customer. Till this city become more modern.
Sure here sometimes appearing guys, who found investor, and they wash investor brain, that they can share 1 Mbps for 1000 customer and make superlow price or superfast internet. They work fine 1-6 month(till they have free bandwidth, and they can suck money from somewhere), then disappearing. Or bankrupcy, or investor selling network to get at least some money.

Yup, that makes sense. So true... so sad.

nuclearcat

Member

Re: We're Not Allowed To...

Flyingwizard, if they can make international backbone market available for ALL foreign companies, like Telia, Level3 and others, and not few who bribed few guys in gov't, at least customers can have for $33 few Mbit/s. The case with ARPU, just on extra-expenses it will be higher. It means you cannot get LOWER than some value minimal price. But noone told that you cannot get MORE bandwidth :-)

hj88

Member

Re: We're Not Allowed To...

nuclearcat, there is no way to bypass ogero by importing internet from other countries throught wireless:
( i am not a professional so dont laught if this idea is absurd)
i was reading some while ago about motorola canopy ptp which have a range of 200km just what is needed to get internet from cyprus, i mean it is not legal but so is vsat and so many are using it 
link : http://www.motorolaptp.com/products/ptp600.php

nuclearcat

Member

Re: We're Not Allowed To...

hj88 - i am talking about local distribution. Backbone is not keypoint for internet price.
If for example customer can bring bandwidth to his home by himself(and equipment on ISP side simple)  and he will not call support, in civilised country price for his connection can be $5/month for few Mbit/s.
It means proper local distribution can make monthly payment lower. Let's say $20 or $15 for normal, and $10 for economy package.

For backbone - yes, no proper solution for now. I know some ways, but cause it is illegal and in same time expensive i will not try even.

hj88

Member

Re: We're Not Allowed To...

nuclearcat
as far as i kow you have a dsp license , are you still limited by ogero for local distribution (not international capacity) ? can't you do like gds, pesco, cableone?

nuclearcat

Member

Re: We're Not Allowed To...

hj88
DSP license is not helping with infrastructure. Still you need secure places with good electricity, which is not an option in lebanon. Plus in europe for example when i have license i can rent at least from telecom's (including governmental) underground fiber capacity or put my own fiber. Here is not. Equipment what is Pesco, cableone, gds using - not a solution, it is workaround of the problem.