It was sent to your gmail account ending with "mneh".Kareem wroteDid receive nothing yet :|samer wroteInvites sent to: nuclearcat, mir, kareem, bashlogic, padre, tich, xannax, KevinAzzam.
Project Gamma (internet comparison)
going to sleep zzzz....ZZZZ....zzzz....ZZZZ....
got to do some overtime again tomorrow :P
one too many projects at hand :/
got to do some overtime again tomorrow :P
one too many projects at hand :/
Sorry, it was in the spam folder, my mistake.samer wroteIt was sent to your gmail account ending with "mneh".Kareem wroteDid receive nothing yet :|samer wroteInvites sent to: nuclearcat, mir, kareem, bashlogic, padre, tich, xannax, KevinAzzam.
Haha, I am already at work and not expected to finish before 5:00 AMBashLogic wrotegoing to sleep zzzz....ZZZZ....zzzz....ZZZZ....
got to do some overtime again tomorrow :P
one too many projects at hand :/
Here is a working copy of the document that I am talking about. I am working on it since 2 weeks (well, no free time at all, or when there is some - lazyness hits be badly).
As you can still, it is under heavy construction. Just give me a week to finish it. It will need styling, fixing typos, adding pictures and graphs and
much, much. Any help then will be highly appreciated.
When I finish it, I will start asking popular Internet / IT experts (several CCIEs as well) from all around the world. Then efforts should be
put to spread this document all around Lebanon - newspapers, TV stations, popular forums, even Facebook. Let all the Lebanon know
that it is not hard (as the goat-fuckers claim) to provide the state with decent Internet connection and let the people start asking:
"Why no one has done it so far?".
http://tg.spnet.net/Lebanon-Internet-project.doc
As you can still, it is under heavy construction. Just give me a week to finish it. It will need styling, fixing typos, adding pictures and graphs and
much, much. Any help then will be highly appreciated.
When I finish it, I will start asking popular Internet / IT experts (several CCIEs as well) from all around the world. Then efforts should be
put to spread this document all around Lebanon - newspapers, TV stations, popular forums, even Facebook. Let all the Lebanon know
that it is not hard (as the goat-fuckers claim) to provide the state with decent Internet connection and let the people start asking:
"Why no one has done it so far?".
http://tg.spnet.net/Lebanon-Internet-project.doc
I read your document, but is it really as easy as it seems to be ?teodorgeorgiev wroteHere is a working copy of the document that I am talking about. I am working on it since 2 weeks (well, no free time at all, or when there is some - lazyness hits be badly).
As you can still, it is under heavy construction. Just give me a week to finish it. It will need styling, fixing typos, adding pictures and graphs and
much, much. Any help then will be highly appreciated.
When I finish it, I will start asking popular Internet / IT experts (several CCIEs as well) from all around the world. Then efforts should be
put to spread this document all around Lebanon - newspapers, TV stations, popular forums, even Facebook. Let all the Lebanon know
that it is not hard (as the goat-fuckers claim) to provide the state with decent Internet connection and let the people start asking:
"Why no one has done it so far?".
http://tg.spnet.net/Lebanon-Internet-project.doc
TG please review opportunity to provide lambda's (spectrum in fiber) and use of CWDM & DWDM. I mean it is more expensive, but it is opportunity to upgrade this fiber to higher capacity. Also it is possible to give ISP's not full wire, but lambda, if he cannot afford paying for whole fiber.
Check www.nag.ru, there is more details on review @ 20 April (russian website).
Check www.nag.ru, there is more details on review @ 20 April (russian website).
Just plant a cable, it is almost same as UTP, but not vulnerable for lightenings and can pass 40-80km distance easily without anything in the middle (UTP max 100 meters).Kareem wroteI read your document, but is it really as easy as it seems to be ?
If someone want, and can pay for that, we give proper cable, he put it (we dont have people to put now), we just come and do lineup at the ends. 1Gbit i can run for him easily in 1 day for distance up to 10-20 km(more i need a little bit more hardware to check link parameters). If cable planted well and it is proper cable, it will stay 5-10 years. If damaged - can be repaired, even more reliably than UTP, almost without parameters degradation. VISP have experience planting fiber network for resellers. But only few of them interested to invest in such things... most care only how to rob users.
Wow wow, so many stuff happened while I was away!
The mindmap looks humongous now!
Usually these kind of collaborative projects go much much slower...I am not used to so much enthuiasm!
Ok so I thought about commenting directly on the mindmap but it's kind of unpractical so I'll do it here, in no particular order:
1) I am all ok for designing or helping designing the interface (no ego here, I just want this thing done like all of us)
1-bis) the interface should be minimal in order to load fast: it would be stupid to have a heavy website that talks about internet speed, so I was thinking of keeping images to a minimum (a.k.a none, if possible).
2) I am also ok for doing the XHTML/CSS or helping doing it (also, no ego of course)
3) About using an existing CMS or not: I don't really know. I always go for working from scratch as it allows for cleaner code; at the same time, we are doing this pro-bono, and I don't know about you guys, but my free time is extremely limited, so maybe using something existing will allow for faster work. I know I completely suck at using CMSs; last time I used Drupal it took me waaaay longer than code from scratch. But if someone here is used to a particular framework and feels he/she can work faster on it, I am ok with it.
4) "apps installed at volunteers computer to monitor": interesting, but how can this be done, on the ground? I mean, there is ready-made apps that monitor the traffic; but they don't send results; does this mean we will develop custom-made apps? Or is there something here I am not quite getting?
5) we need a name! Something Lebanese people can relate to, or something funny, in any case, something that can be remembered easily. I will propose again that we go along the lines of "lebanoninternetsucks", maybe not this, but something in that tone (I am not particularly attached to the idea, I am just proposing it again for lack of a better one). I'd rather have something more arabic (and shorter), but I have no ideas at the moment.
6) the mindmap is quite exhaustive already. I don't know who completed it but good job!
I think we should design a project manager now to control and manage tasks, set milestones, delegate tasks to people, etc.
I have a collaborative app that we use already and it's quite nice. Not at all what I would like a collaborative app to be, but after trying many of them, I found this one to be not so bad. It's called opengoo, if you want to try it or read about it.
I will state right away that I can't be project manager because of lack of time. So let's hear proposals. You know each other better than I do, I'm the new one here.
ps: @teodorgeorgiev: interesting article!
The mindmap looks humongous now!
Usually these kind of collaborative projects go much much slower...I am not used to so much enthuiasm!
Ok so I thought about commenting directly on the mindmap but it's kind of unpractical so I'll do it here, in no particular order:
1) I am all ok for designing or helping designing the interface (no ego here, I just want this thing done like all of us)
1-bis) the interface should be minimal in order to load fast: it would be stupid to have a heavy website that talks about internet speed, so I was thinking of keeping images to a minimum (a.k.a none, if possible).
2) I am also ok for doing the XHTML/CSS or helping doing it (also, no ego of course)
3) About using an existing CMS or not: I don't really know. I always go for working from scratch as it allows for cleaner code; at the same time, we are doing this pro-bono, and I don't know about you guys, but my free time is extremely limited, so maybe using something existing will allow for faster work. I know I completely suck at using CMSs; last time I used Drupal it took me waaaay longer than code from scratch. But if someone here is used to a particular framework and feels he/she can work faster on it, I am ok with it.
4) "apps installed at volunteers computer to monitor": interesting, but how can this be done, on the ground? I mean, there is ready-made apps that monitor the traffic; but they don't send results; does this mean we will develop custom-made apps? Or is there something here I am not quite getting?
5) we need a name! Something Lebanese people can relate to, or something funny, in any case, something that can be remembered easily. I will propose again that we go along the lines of "lebanoninternetsucks", maybe not this, but something in that tone (I am not particularly attached to the idea, I am just proposing it again for lack of a better one). I'd rather have something more arabic (and shorter), but I have no ideas at the moment.
6) the mindmap is quite exhaustive already. I don't know who completed it but good job!
I think we should design a project manager now to control and manage tasks, set milestones, delegate tasks to people, etc.
I have a collaborative app that we use already and it's quite nice. Not at all what I would like a collaborative app to be, but after trying many of them, I found this one to be not so bad. It's called opengoo, if you want to try it or read about it.
I will state right away that I can't be project manager because of lack of time. So let's hear proposals. You know each other better than I do, I'm the new one here.
ps: @teodorgeorgiev: interesting article!
- Edited
I thought we would develop our own.apps installed at volunteers computer to monitor
or even if there is not time, we could use a tool that exports results automatically to some folder.
then we do just something to auto-send those results. or something to send us just the final analysis, not all the data
ppl will have to volunteer their computers, by downloading the small app [ donno if it is helpful ]
-- teo :
I really like the idea of remember to connect the other areas in lebanon and how ISPs/army/corporate can lease (maybe the army would encourage such thing if they need it and yes we have to think about the ppl living outside beirut )
and I think another is to encourage local content , and local hosting and consumption of that data
for example if ISPs will host something like v-Enjoy and gaming network or for example the latest releases of popular free software
everyone is downloading windows7, latest ubuntu and such
and they are what makes lot of use of our connection.
this could be used as a hub to promote legally free and easy to use open source software and freeware.
ppl will be able to download most tools they want from local copies
A big thanks to those who have collaborated so far:the mindmap is quite exhaustive already. I don't know who completed it but good job!
tich
ChaoticMind (KevinAzzam)
mir
Xannax
BashLogic
PadreLoco
battikh
kareem
Xannax, I think we should all meet up and brainstorm some more. Then divide the tasks right then and there (and appoint a project manager). We can also use something like Trac for project management
People, people, give me several days to
Kareem, wait to see the entire document, I will explain how much does it cost and how HARD is this to be done. Btw, ever read the Hitchhiker guide to galaxy?
Denys, yes DWDM will be considered, it would be as simple as using a different technology over the same cable. Just give me time to
write all that stuff that stays in my head :)
1Gbps can be used for sure, but as you see I have included an option for 10Gbps (check the XFPs). Just we will migrate from SFP to XFP
and we will have a 10Gbps link. Imagine 24 cables that suddenly will start carrying (well, even if 2 of them only) 10Gbps each !!!!
Mir, same here. Wait for the document to be finished. Local file storages and stuff are planned and will be mentioned in the doc :)
Kareem, wait to see the entire document, I will explain how much does it cost and how HARD is this to be done. Btw, ever read the Hitchhiker guide to galaxy?
Denys, yes DWDM will be considered, it would be as simple as using a different technology over the same cable. Just give me time to
write all that stuff that stays in my head :)
1Gbps can be used for sure, but as you see I have included an option for 10Gbps (check the XFPs). Just we will migrate from SFP to XFP
and we will have a 10Gbps link. Imagine 24 cables that suddenly will start carrying (well, even if 2 of them only) 10Gbps each !!!!
Mir, same here. Wait for the document to be finished. Local file storages and stuff are planned and will be mentioned in the doc :)
Ok let's meet up. Pick a place/time next week. I am more or less free from Wednesday on. I am near Mathaf, but I can meet you wherever, Hamra, Sassine, if we meet in Beirut. Where are most of you guys located?
Teo, have some questions about the doc, i know it is still at an early stage and that my understanding of the type of data that flows between users in lebanon is something close to 0, so i need some clarifications...
the document says it is a solution to the internet problem in lebanon and that it is and cheaper and faster way to achieve that compared to having more bandwidth with the international backbone. but would having this fiber project done achieve that? how much bandwidth can it save? how much bandwidth today is used for traffic between to lebanese users? if i take my internet habits as a reference it wouldn't be more than 1% (which is actually much less) of my total bandwidth. so how much would it save us? 1% of out total international bandwidth? and how much is 1% in our case? how much money it represents in a year?
such a project is definitely very important and it is what should have been done since the beginning and it can have many advantages. but i'm not sure that 1 of the advantages is to save a lot of bandwidth. again, i have no idea how much traffic goes from 1 ISP to the other in lebanon so i could be dramatically wrong, which is why i'm asking the question as you and nuclearcat probably have an answer to that.
but yes, it does have some important advantages like stated in the document, mainly for corporate use. companies would be able to interconnect their offices with it instead of using microwave. renting it would bring money and would give a better quality of service to companies, but wouldn't save much from our international bandwidth. like for example, the future movement is currently interconnecting all their offices in lebanon and havin, g IP telephony between them (which is not very legal in lebanon)so if we had a nice fiber mpls cloud, they would have definitely found some advantage in using it.
and as mir said and you confirmed, having other services to make it more attractive would be great. but for example, to have file sharing... file sharing is mainly used for illegal things. the file sharing things that really use bandwidth are mainly MP3s and porn, both illegal due to copyrights thing. so can the government go for such a thing? they would receive lots of pressure from other countries to stop or at least monitor the service.
anyways, to make it short, here's my question: yes, it is important to apply this in lebanon as it is how it should have been since the beginning but how much bandwidth would it really save us? is it really a solution on the long term? would it let the end users get better bandwidth thx to it? when more people will get internet access, wouldn't we have to go again for extra international bandwidth? so is it really a solution to THIS problem or "just" a way to make things better from a networking point of view and have a better quality of service for the internal traffic?
the document says it is a solution to the internet problem in lebanon and that it is and cheaper and faster way to achieve that compared to having more bandwidth with the international backbone. but would having this fiber project done achieve that? how much bandwidth can it save? how much bandwidth today is used for traffic between to lebanese users? if i take my internet habits as a reference it wouldn't be more than 1% (which is actually much less) of my total bandwidth. so how much would it save us? 1% of out total international bandwidth? and how much is 1% in our case? how much money it represents in a year?
such a project is definitely very important and it is what should have been done since the beginning and it can have many advantages. but i'm not sure that 1 of the advantages is to save a lot of bandwidth. again, i have no idea how much traffic goes from 1 ISP to the other in lebanon so i could be dramatically wrong, which is why i'm asking the question as you and nuclearcat probably have an answer to that.
but yes, it does have some important advantages like stated in the document, mainly for corporate use. companies would be able to interconnect their offices with it instead of using microwave. renting it would bring money and would give a better quality of service to companies, but wouldn't save much from our international bandwidth. like for example, the future movement is currently interconnecting all their offices in lebanon and havin, g IP telephony between them (which is not very legal in lebanon)so if we had a nice fiber mpls cloud, they would have definitely found some advantage in using it.
and as mir said and you confirmed, having other services to make it more attractive would be great. but for example, to have file sharing... file sharing is mainly used for illegal things. the file sharing things that really use bandwidth are mainly MP3s and porn, both illegal due to copyrights thing. so can the government go for such a thing? they would receive lots of pressure from other countries to stop or at least monitor the service.
anyways, to make it short, here's my question: yes, it is important to apply this in lebanon as it is how it should have been since the beginning but how much bandwidth would it really save us? is it really a solution on the long term? would it let the end users get better bandwidth thx to it? when more people will get internet access, wouldn't we have to go again for extra international bandwidth? so is it really a solution to THIS problem or "just" a way to make things better from a networking point of view and have a better quality of service for the internal traffic?
1. As I stated in the document - it is more a quick workaround until/IF the "submarine" cable arrives.battikh wroteTeo, have some questions about the doc, i know it is still at an early stage and that my understanding of the type of data that flows between users in lebanon is something close to 0, so i need some clarifications...
the document says it is a solution to the internet problem in lebanon and that it is and cheaper and faster way to achieve that compared to having more bandwidth with the international backbone. but would having this fiber project done achieve that? how much bandwidth can it save? how much bandwidth today is used for traffic between to lebanese users? if i take my internet habits as a reference it wouldn't be more than 1% (which is actually much less) of my total bandwidth. so how much would it save us? 1% of out total international bandwidth? and how much is 1% in our case? how much money it represents in a year?
such a project is definitely very important and it is what should have been done since the beginning and it can have many advantages. but i'm not sure that 1 of the advantages is to save a lot of bandwidth. again, i have no idea how much traffic goes from 1 ISP to the other in lebanon so i could be dramatically wrong, which is why i'm asking the question as you and nuclearcat probably have an answer to that.
but yes, it does have some important advantages like stated in the document, mainly for corporate use. companies would be able to interconnect their offices with it instead of using microwave. renting it would bring money and would give a better quality of service to companies, but wouldn't save much from our international bandwidth. like for example, the future movement is currently interconnecting all their offices in lebanon and havin, g IP telephony between them (which is not very legal in lebanon)so if we had a nice fiber mpls cloud, they would have definitely found some advantage in using it.
and as mir said and you confirmed, having other services to make it more attractive would be great. but for example, to have file sharing... file sharing is mainly used for illegal things. the file sharing things that really use bandwidth are mainly MP3s and porn, both illegal due to copyrights thing. so can the government go for such a thing? they would receive lots of pressure from other countries to stop or at least monitor the service.
anyways, to make it short, here's my question: yes, it is important to apply this in lebanon as it is how it should have been since the beginning but how much bandwidth would it really save us? is it really a solution on the long term? would it let the end users get better bandwidth thx to it? when more people will get internet access, wouldn't we have to go again for extra international bandwidth? so is it really a solution to THIS problem or "just" a way to make things better from a networking point of view and have a better quality of service for the internal traffic?
2. Even if the submarine cable finally arrives at Tripoli. And then what??? How would you distribute these 10/20/50Gbps among the users?
You would need a serious infrastructure for this. How will you bring 1Gbps of this amount to Saida??? By pidgeons, camels, goats?
Aah, since we started speaking of goats, maybe Mr. Bassil would give away some of the goats from his personal goat-harem?
3. Believe me, a lot of the countries have such peerings. We had the same in Bulgaria since 1999 and it saved us (and keeps saving us) A LOT
of bandwidth, 60% and more of the bandwidth is kept local. And I bet $5000 that the same will happen in Lebanon. And when you have
two options for a download - one international with speed of 12Kbps and one local with a speed or 150Kbps, you would definitely prefer
the local one and slowly,slowly people will get used to go for "the local one".
This is as we stated above - torrents, webcam sessions, file transfer (http/ftp), office VPNs, remote desktop sessions, browsing, gaming.
File sharing can be used for legal content as well - Linux ISOs, portage mirroring. If someone is transmitting illegal or hostile content -
let the authorities hunt after him. Many other governments went for "such things" - there is nothing wrong. But as for the SPECIAL Lebanese
government, which is SOOO LEGAL and likes everything to be really, really, RRRRRREEEEALLLY LEGAL - YES, it might become a big problem.
Btw, since you use the word *government* for the Lebanese one, pls in future when reffering to it put the word "government" in quotes.
Why? Because the Lebanese "government" doesn't comply with the main reason and goal of a regular goverment.
I prefer "mafia".
Btw, since you use the word *government* for the Lebanese one, pls in future when reffering to it put the word "government" in quotes.
Why? Because the Lebanese "government" doesn't comply with the main reason and goal of a regular goverment.
Guys, let's stick to the topic at hand .I prefer "mafia".
- Edited
My wife is planning on doing a story about internet in lebanon as opposed to internet in the rest of the world (To be broadcast on Al Hurra Channel). I've already provided her a few resources (mainly broadbandlebanon) but i can notify her to put it on hold until you guys have something transparent.
P.S.: Toss me an invite as well please.
P.S.: Toss me an invite as well please.
well ... even tho i am no networking expert... i think it would be a good step forward . I don't see a bad side to it, somehow it is a basic/logical step, we will still need every bit of international backbone bandwith, and maybe with the suggestion above, this can make us use smartly the bandwith we have to do more with less.
we have to know the main usage of the internet, maybe we should try to get some usage stats from ISPs in order to calculate the improvement done.
For companies and work, instead of having to send emails and ftp files, if the operation can be done locally it would be great. if remote support can improve, this can save a LOT !
even for individuals, while sharing pics, files, videos ...
personally when i am not working, i am not using the internet anymore for "entertainment"
I chat with friends while working, do some browsing, afterward i get the hell out of a computer to have some real fun ( which doesn't happen often sadly )
we have to know the main usage of the internet, maybe we should try to get some usage stats from ISPs in order to calculate the improvement done.
For companies and work, instead of having to send emails and ftp files, if the operation can be done locally it would be great. if remote support can improve, this can save a LOT !
even for individuals, while sharing pics, files, videos ...
personally when i am not working, i am not using the internet anymore for "entertainment"
I chat with friends while working, do some browsing, afterward i get the hell out of a computer to have some real fun ( which doesn't happen often sadly )
I might be a bit late but...
As i don't currenty live in lebanon and my knowledge about the internet there is limited, i can't help too much in collecting the required info. But i can help in the technical part - programming etc... So if you want extra help i'll be happy to give it, otherwise/and i hope this project becomes successful, useful and people would benefit from it.
As i don't currenty live in lebanon and my knowledge about the internet there is limited, i can't help too much in collecting the required info. But i can help in the technical part - programming etc... So if you want extra help i'll be happy to give it, otherwise/and i hope this project becomes successful, useful and people would benefit from it.