For THGV it is tricky. Some hops inside THGV have latency because ICMP throttled. ping 10.0.25.10, thats internal host that should be bypassed.
Are you DSL or wireless/reseller?
Are you DSL or wireless/reseller?
Need an explanation on this connection issue
- Edited
Pinging 10.0.25.10 is <10ms when I only have 1 device connected to my network with nothing running at all, and as soon as I run anything that requires internet connection even if it's something as basic and simple as going on gmail.com, on any device, the ping to 10.0.25.10 skyrockets past 500ms and stays that way until I cease all internet connection usage.nuclearcat wroteFor THGV it is tricky. Some hops inside THGV have latency because ICMP throttled. ping 10.0.25.10, thats internal host that should be bypassed.
Are you DSL or wireless/reseller?
I'm an ADSL user, this is an absolute joke, and they won't admit that something's busted on their end.
ping to 10.0.25.10 should not be "busted on their end", but let's assume its still possible. thats internal path and it is bypassed from bandwidth policy.
Few more important questions:
1)Is it behaving different at early morning?
2)Did you check your ADSL modem stats? What are up/down speeds?
3)Can you try to ping 192.168.99.1 ? This is internal IP of THGV LNS server, so internal path totally ruled out.
I need to know answers to those questions, so i can know if any of following true:
1)Problem between Ogero(centrale LAC) and THGV equipment. Likely not, but i will ask if there is recently complaints about same issue
2)Problem with termination server bandwidth policy
3)Problem is on your side
Few more important questions:
1)Is it behaving different at early morning?
2)Did you check your ADSL modem stats? What are up/down speeds?
3)Can you try to ping 192.168.99.1 ? This is internal IP of THGV LNS server, so internal path totally ruled out.
I need to know answers to those questions, so i can know if any of following true:
1)Problem between Ogero(centrale LAC) and THGV equipment. Likely not, but i will ask if there is recently complaints about same issue
2)Problem with termination server bandwidth policy
3)Problem is on your side
1) Nonuclearcat wroteping to 10.0.25.10 should not be "busted on their end", but let's assume its still possible. thats internal path and it is bypassed from bandwidth policy.
Few more important questions:
1)Is it behaving different at early morning?
2)Did you check your ADSL modem stats? What are up/down speeds?
3)Can you try to ping 192.168.99.1 ? This is internal IP of THGV LNS server, so internal path totally ruled out.
I need to know answers to those questions, so i can know if any of following true:
1)Problem between Ogero(centrale LAC) and THGV equipment. Likely not, but i will ask if there is recently complaints about same issue
2)Problem with termination server bandwidth policy
3)Problem is on your side
2) Yes, everything's as normal, up 1023 kbps/down 13000 kbps
3) Ping to 192.168.99.1 is between 10ms and 15ms when nothing is running on my network at all, and as soon as I run anything on my network that requires internet connection that same latency goes up past 500ms.
That means unlikely it is THGV issue, as most of issues is load related and day dependent, also i just did checkup of all their systems and discussed with their techies, they said such complaints(ping goes higher during the load) they heard, but less than 5 customers, so it might be internal Ogero network related, which Ogero unlikely will bother to fix this days, but i am not entirely sure it is Ogero.
But definitely not THGV, as both DSL servers i checked and they are working fine, and ping 192.168.99.1 there is only one unit involved - THGV DSL server, and no other infrastructure.
As last resort, did you tried to use ethernet cable to modem? Sometimes it is just buggy modems, and on wifi path NAT offload doesnt work properly.
But definitely not THGV, as both DSL servers i checked and they are working fine, and ping 192.168.99.1 there is only one unit involved - THGV DSL server, and no other infrastructure.
As last resort, did you tried to use ethernet cable to modem? Sometimes it is just buggy modems, and on wifi path NAT offload doesnt work properly.
Hi guys, I face this issue on two Ogero DSL DSL lines, different locations (streets and buildings) but the same "central".
What happens in my case is whenever someone uploads, nothing will work anymore + ping is up to 1 second in some game -yes 900 ms-
I think when the app you've listed may sync something or do some upload that crash the internet.
I've tried contacting Ogero but no results, I ended up installing terranet microwave which بلا حسيدي is working fine.
What happens in my case is whenever someone uploads, nothing will work anymore + ping is up to 1 second in some game -yes 900 ms-
I think when the app you've listed may sync something or do some upload that crash the internet.
I've tried contacting Ogero but no results, I ended up installing terranet microwave which بلا حسيدي is working fine.
My ping doesn't only go higher during load, and the problems aren't coming from Ogero's end nor my end.nuclearcat wroteThat means unlikely it is THGV issue, as most of issues is load related and day dependent, also i just did checkup of all their systems and discussed with their techies, they said such complaints(ping goes higher during the load) they heard, but less than 5 customers, so it might be internal Ogero network related, which Ogero unlikely will bother to fix this days, but i am not entirely sure it is Ogero.
But definitely not THGV, as both DSL servers i checked and they are working fine, and ping 192.168.99.1 there is only one unit involved - THGV DSL server, and no other infrastructure.
As last resort, did you tried to use ethernet cable to modem? Sometimes it is just buggy modems, and on wifi path NAT offload doesnt work properly.
I guess THGV is simply cutting corners due to the economic crisis in order to increase profit, as all these problems just started happening out of nowhere after the new internet prices came out, and it seems like anyone related to this company is always either blaming Ogero or the customer for their own problems.
This is a common disadvantage with ADSL, and it's not really an ISP caused or related issue.scorz wroteHi guys, I face this issue on two Ogero DSL DSL lines, different locations (streets and buildings) but the same "central".
What happens in my case is whenever someone uploads, nothing will work anymore + ping is up to 1 second in some game -yes 900 ms-
I think when the app you've listed may sync something or do some upload that crash the internet.
I've tried contacting Ogero but no results, I ended up installing terranet microwave which بلا حسيدي is working fine.
It's because up speeds are super low.
I've cleaned up the posts that got heated and will keep the topic running. Troubleshooting is always a gray area, it's generally difficult for any one person to be conclusively right without having the full picture/details.
This topic may help others going through the same thing.
Thank you all for pitching in!
This topic may help others going through the same thing.
Thank you all for pitching in!
xterm, it is not gray, it is tech, and troubleshooting is trivial, when customer give proper answers and have basic tech knowledge. I did created guidelines for support for such cases and did such troubleshooting myself endless number of times.
Also, let me clarify, i created all tech infrastructure on TH, and i am still running it, but sure not alone, with their team.
In this case it is clear that _one_ person can indeed identify issue and if it is in his zone of responsibility - fix it or provide detailed info that it will be fixed by third party (Ogero, but i can assure - they wont bulge doing that for one end-user).
For example:
But it is obvious, thru monitoring traceroute, if latency start to jump on first hop - it is user wifi router.
On second hop it is usually ISP BRAS, if latency start to jitters there - it means either Ogero DSP issues, or ISP have problems on his BRAS, OR in some cases shaper issues on BRAS.
Then you can see those high values on hop 4 (probably also 3 have them), but they are normal if next hops have lower latency, it just means that router control-plane throttling ICMP, but what is important that latency on last hops is OK and such values can be ignored.
Sure i can provide references and proof for each word i did said.
Structure of Ogero network is approx like this
And latency visibly increasing on LNS point, which is not easy to troubleshoot at all. Likely it is congestion at Ogero centrale, especially as user admit that it happened with him once on another ISP (and obvious logic, what is common in this case? Ogero infra)
But in current case user is withholding proper data (traceroute) and making ugly remarks before even troubleshooting completed.
I'm putting my nose in this issue and trying to solve his problem as my personal initiative, and I voluntarily donate my time, going to all extent explaining how things work, and instead of continuing, he jump abruptly to conclusions and make such accusational comments:
P.S. Please dont delete this post, i wrote it respectfully as i can and i believe it doesnt violate any rules and also have learning value, as if any tech trying to help and go out of his duty responsibilities, user should have some respect as well to him and his company.
Also, let me clarify, i created all tech infrastructure on TH, and i am still running it, but sure not alone, with their team.
In this case it is clear that _one_ person can indeed identify issue and if it is in his zone of responsibility - fix it or provide detailed info that it will be fixed by third party (Ogero, but i can assure - they wont bulge doing that for one end-user).
For example:
Some hops i imitated, cause i dont have access to identical DSL account.newnetdb ~ # mtr 8.8.8.8 --report --report-cycles=10
Start: Tue Aug 2 12:54:28 2022
HOST: newnetdb Loss% Snt Last Avg Best Wrst StDev
1.|-- 192.168.1.1 0.0% 10 a b c d
2.|-- 192.168.99.1 0.0% 10 ....
3.|-- 10.0.253.x 0.0% 10 ....
4.|-- 10.1.16.1 0.0% 10 4547. 2832. 1500. 4547. 1216.0
5.|-- 172.16.79.229 0.0% 10 0.2 0.2 0.2 0.2 0.0
6.|-- ??? 100.0 10 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
7.|-- 172.16.49.1 0.0% 10 1.2 1.2 1.1 1.8 0.0
8.|-- 213.242.116.233 0.0% 10 37.7 43.5 37.5 80.1 13.8
9.|-- 72.14.212.254 0.0% 10 37.6 37.6 37.5 37.8 0.0
10.|-- 74.125.244.209 0.0% 10 37.8 37.7 37.7 37.8 0.0
11.|-- 142.250.46.95 0.0% 10 38.7 38.9 38.2 42.1 1.1
10.|-- dns.google 0.0% 10 37.6 37.6 37.6 37.7 0.0
But it is obvious, thru monitoring traceroute, if latency start to jump on first hop - it is user wifi router.
On second hop it is usually ISP BRAS, if latency start to jitters there - it means either Ogero DSP issues, or ISP have problems on his BRAS, OR in some cases shaper issues on BRAS.
Then you can see those high values on hop 4 (probably also 3 have them), but they are normal if next hops have lower latency, it just means that router control-plane throttling ICMP, but what is important that latency on last hops is OK and such values can be ignored.
Sure i can provide references and proof for each word i did said.
Structure of Ogero network is approx like this
And latency visibly increasing on LNS point, which is not easy to troubleshoot at all. Likely it is congestion at Ogero centrale, especially as user admit that it happened with him once on another ISP (and obvious logic, what is common in this case? Ogero infra)
But in current case user is withholding proper data (traceroute) and making ugly remarks before even troubleshooting completed.
I'm putting my nose in this issue and trying to solve his problem as my personal initiative, and I voluntarily donate my time, going to all extent explaining how things work, and instead of continuing, he jump abruptly to conclusions and make such accusational comments:
So, in a situation where a person is behaving disrespectfully - would you waste time on him?I guess THGV is simply cutting corners due to the economic crisis in order to increase profit, as all these problems just started happening out of nowhere after the new internet prices came out, and it seems like anyone related to this company is always either blaming Ogero or the customer for their own problems.
P.S. Please dont delete this post, i wrote it respectfully as i can and i believe it doesnt violate any rules and also have learning value, as if any tech trying to help and go out of his duty responsibilities, user should have some respect as well to him and his company.
4 days later
- Edited
I respect you taking the time to help out here, but i have been working in this field for years and almost all issues we faced are Private ISP's fault been working on some corporate networks lately and its been a horrible experience even when u talk directly to engineers when u get very technical most of them have trouble understanding and start pointing fingers to ogero or gds when using microwave etc..
If in any area the dsp provider is ogero i don't see the point going for private ISPs you are always guaranteed better performance from ogero directly if you are looking for ping stability i have been with then since more than 10 years and never even these days did i have issues while my people i know in same area using same ogero infrastructure with private ISPs have issues
i don't know much about thgv, but i know that they were trying to teach a 60 year old man that barely knows how to use whatsapp to configure his dsl modem vpi vci and wan pppoe i laughed so hard when i saw the chat, don't they have onsite support???
btw one ISP probably under same umbrella had 8 or 9 internal hops and that is over microwave transparent bridges what the hell are you doing routing the data between 8 routers/servers.
Edit: don't get me wrong i am not trying to defend ogero they have their fair share of problems, i dont blame private ISPs that much if they are always under their mercy its rough being a middle man
If in any area the dsp provider is ogero i don't see the point going for private ISPs you are always guaranteed better performance from ogero directly if you are looking for ping stability i have been with then since more than 10 years and never even these days did i have issues while my people i know in same area using same ogero infrastructure with private ISPs have issues
i don't know much about thgv, but i know that they were trying to teach a 60 year old man that barely knows how to use whatsapp to configure his dsl modem vpi vci and wan pppoe i laughed so hard when i saw the chat, don't they have onsite support???
btw one ISP probably under same umbrella had 8 or 9 internal hops and that is over microwave transparent bridges what the hell are you doing routing the data between 8 routers/servers.
Edit: don't get me wrong i am not trying to defend ogero they have their fair share of problems, i dont blame private ISPs that much if they are always under their mercy its rough being a middle man
- Edited
Ogero have very limited manpower, so their support covering most basic cases only.If in any area the dsp provider is ogero i don't see the point going for private ISPs you are always guaranteed better performance from ogero directly if you are looking for ping stability i have been with then since more than 10 years and never even these days did i have issues while my people i know in same area using same ogero infrastructure with private ISPs have issues
Also their demarcation point is box in building, means at best (you might have to wait weeks for that) they will come and check line before box, and if it is ok - you are on your own.
If your modem lost settings? They wont bother telling how to put vci/vpi, the only your choice is to come to their office and they will program modem for you. AFAIK they dont even give you your own login/password.
Some website fail to open due routing issues? Good luck troubleshooting that with Ogero as end-user.
About pointing to GDS/Ogero/microwave - true, even THGV 1st line engineers often do that, people is people, in Lebanon you need to have basic networking skills to reason with 1st line of support, at ANY isp. Ogero might tell it is international problem, out of their control or it is wires in your building, if 1st line dont want to bother with troubleshooting.
All ISP have onsite support, but it cost way more than account itself, literally nobody pay for it, even those who say they are ready to pay, when engineer arrive and fix their issue, they often refuse to pay (even was agreed otherwise), so most stopped offering it. If old man dont want to put vpi/vci, he can do easiest thing - bring his modem to ISP office.
8-9 internal hops is quite normal, especially in Lebanon due government monopoly limitations (government force to split each connection to ISP/DSP + they dont allow anybody except ogero to own fiber and etc).
When you hide all those hops behind MPLS, it will look nicer, but much worse to troubleshoot.
Also, this is for example comcast, US:
OUTER:
traceroute to 216.58.217.142 (216.58.217.142), 64 hops max, 72 byte packets
1 router.asus.com (192.168.1.1) 4.018 ms 0.718 ms 0.655 ms
2 * * c-68-81-70-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net (68.81.70.1) 4228.615 ms <————— UH YA, THAT’S NOT GOOD
3 68.85.194.209 (68.85.194.209) 19.755 ms 18.592 ms 10.102 ms
4 be-20-ar03.newcastle.de.panjde.comcast.net (69.139.192.153) 19.453 ms 33.912 ms 109.620 ms
5 be-33287-cr02.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net (68.86.94.249) 1736.663 ms 4787.462 ms 20.046 ms
6 he-0-10-0-0-pe04.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net (68.86.82.210) 16.548 ms 20.248 ms 19.318 ms
7 as36040-2-c.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net (75.149.229.86) 14.933 ms 24.071 ms 14.382 ms
That makes my point even more true cause if i am with a private ISP using Ogeros dsl infrastructure if any problem occurs you will have 2 parties to deal with it will take a week or 2 for the ISP to figure out its a line problem for example and then a month for ogero to come fix it so why not cut corners? that is 1 more reason to go with ogero if they are your dspnuclearcat wrote Ogero have very limited manpower, so their support covering most basic cases only.
Also their demarcation point is box in building, means at best (you might have to wait weeks for that) they will come and check line before box, and if it is ok - you are on your own.
If your modem lost settings? They wont bother telling how to put vci/vpi, the only your choice is to come to their office and they will program modem for you. AFAIK they dont even give you your own login/password.
Some website fail to open due routing issues? Good luck troubleshooting that with Ogero as end-user.
so what makes them better than ogero? again nothing, ogero has support teams and Centrale all over lebanon but this man is like 2 hour drive from the ISP if the problem was with ogero it would have been a 10minute trip to fix it, but he was without internet for weeks for simple stuff.
All ISP have onsite support, but it cost way more than account itself, literally nobody pay for it, even those who say they are ready to pay, when engineer arrive and fix their issue, they often refuse to pay (even was agreed otherwise), so most stopped offering it. If old man dont want to put vpi/vci, he can do easiest thing - bring his modem to ISP office.
If it costs more than the account to fix an issue then why provide services all over lebanon if you can provide support in one area? simply because it generates way more money as you are using ogero's infrastructure and paying them a fee so u can have as many accounts as u like without bothering with infrastructure other than couple of routers and servers and share the bandwidth between users this explains the tens of "ISPs" in this very small market
By internal i mean within the ISP not in lebanon all IPs were in the same subnet
8-9 internal hops is quite normal, especially in Lebanon due government monopoly limitations (government force to split each connection to ISP/DSP + they dont allow anybody except ogero to own fiber and etc).
When you hide all those hops behind MPLS, it will look nicer, but much worse to troubleshoot.
Also, this is for example comcast, US:OUTER:
traceroute to 216.58.217.142 (216.58.217.142), 64 hops max, 72 byte packets
1 router.asus.com (192.168.1.1) 4.018 ms 0.718 ms 0.655 ms
2 * * c-68-81-70-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net (68.81.70.1) 4228.615 ms <————— UH YA, THAT’S NOT GOOD
3 68.85.194.209 (68.85.194.209) 19.755 ms 18.592 ms 10.102 ms
4 be-20-ar03.newcastle.de.panjde.comcast.net (69.139.192.153) 19.453 ms 33.912 ms 109.620 ms
5 be-33287-cr02.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net (68.86.94.249) 1736.663 ms 4787.462 ms 20.046 ms
6 he-0-10-0-0-pe04.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net (68.86.82.210) 16.548 ms 20.248 ms 19.318 ms
7 as36040-2-c.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net (75.149.229.86) 14.933 ms 24.071 ms 14.382 ms
i know it is normal in lebanon to have lops of internal hops due to the situation data goes around in a circle from ogero to isp or maybe another dsp then ogero then international lol
in US the hops are across several regions not within same building like the isp i am referring to
I'm pointing that Ogero wont bother about your tricky backbone issues, like some app not working, or routing issue of website, if you are end-user.DNA wrote That makes my point even more true cause if i am with a private ISP using Ogeros dsl infrastructure if any problem occurs you will have 2 parties to deal with it will take a week or 2 for the ISP to figure out its a line problem for example and then a month for ogero to come fix it so why not cut corners? that is 1 more reason to go with ogero if they are your dsp
Private ISP on high-class service type will do that and fast enough.
Ogero have support teams that handle traditional telephone stuff, half-related to most common internet issues - broken wiring from box to centrale, sometimes they can try to solve bad noisy pairs(but that one as i see by feedback of their users - after quite lot of nagging). As soon as issue different - good luck.DNA wrote so what makes them better than ogero? again nothing, ogero has support teams and Centrale all over lebanon but this man is like 2 hour drive from the ISP if the problem was with ogero it would have been a 10minute trip to fix it, but he was without internet for weeks for simple stuff.
If it costs more than the account to fix an issue then why provide services all over lebanon if you can provide support in one area? simply because it generates way more money as you are using ogero's infrastructure and paying them a fee so u can have as many accounts as u like without bothering with infrastructure other than couple of routers and servers and share the bandwidth between users this explains the tens of "ISPs" in this very small market
You cannot bring your modem to ANY centrale. AFAIK you need to bring to Ogero central offices in Beirut.
Why provide services all over lebanon and not having local support offices? Just because average Lebanese citizen cannot afford paying for such level of service that ISP will have support office at walk distance. It means there is support or not, running offices all across country will end up in ARPU, your account cost.
And it is not just "few servers". Are you aware that Google, Facebook, Akamai, Netflix and many others running part of their offloading infrastructure at private ISPs? And private ISPs give priority on such traffic and sometimes even dont count it as FUP/quota? Also often ISP trying to run QoS, so your conferencing software will run, even if your area/connection is congested (depends on ISP and service type). On Ogero... i know many people switched to private companies, especially when remote education was only option, just because Ogero set too small upload on DSL or centrale is congested and they dont have any QoS set for users and they are unable to solve issue.
Thats just not correct understanding of ISP infrastructure.DNA wrote By internal i mean within the ISP not in lebanon all IPs were in the same subnet
i know it is normal in lebanon to have lops of internal hops due to the situation data goes around in a circle from ogero to isp or maybe another dsp then ogero then international lol
in US the hops are across several regions not within same building like the isp i am referring to
US ISP might have infrastructure stretched all across the country, just because of country size.
ISP in Lebanon might have all hops in reserved subnets (10/8, 172.16/12, etc) cause they are not wasting real IPs, but that doesn't means it is one place, or stretched all across the country.
You cannot judge ISP infrastructure by traceroute unless you know exactly where each hop are and what it is doing.
Assuming anything just by numbers of hops or subnets - is not proper way at all.
I have some ISPs where DDoS protection scheme generate 1-2 hops with ips 10.x.x.x which are same as previous ones, but they are located abroad, in IX locations.
man u are mixing things up, u are talking about ogero as if most of the users and ISPs arent using their dsl to begin with, if ogero's upload is small switching to any other isp results in worse performance because Ogero is your DSP and upload will stay the same, i never said dont go with private ISPs when they can provide u service using their own infrastructure, but from my experience ogero's internet is the most stable its actually great no issues whatsoever i see no point in switching to private when i am connected to Ogeros DSLAM unless i am going microwave 4G or something
btw microwave is great for coorporate users across the country i mean without it its almost impossible to get anything done with ogero in most regions. all corporate users i work with have private isps and i even recommend this route, their support is better GDS support is very good also.
but as home users they are worse than ogero they are using Ogero's infrastructure to reach the whole country and make a buck yet they don't provide support and can easily blame ogero thats how its going, u can't provide a service with no support, but they are getting away with it stop denying that fact man and no i do not have to pay u to come fix my internet, its part of your business
That reminded me of our "ishtirak" guy if his generator broke he used to include on the bill "فرق صيانة" lol
like running a business should be 100% profit no costs or anything.
regarding modem configuration no they offer the service not only in beirut and in some cases they will ship it or something at least in my area u can leave the modem and take it after a week or so.( i am not sure in the current situation though).
btw microwave is great for coorporate users across the country i mean without it its almost impossible to get anything done with ogero in most regions. all corporate users i work with have private isps and i even recommend this route, their support is better GDS support is very good also.
but as home users they are worse than ogero they are using Ogero's infrastructure to reach the whole country and make a buck yet they don't provide support and can easily blame ogero thats how its going, u can't provide a service with no support, but they are getting away with it stop denying that fact man and no i do not have to pay u to come fix my internet, its part of your business
That reminded me of our "ishtirak" guy if his generator broke he used to include on the bill "فرق صيانة" lol
like running a business should be 100% profit no costs or anything.
regarding modem configuration no they offer the service not only in beirut and in some cases they will ship it or something at least in my area u can leave the modem and take it after a week or so.( i am not sure in the current situation though).
yes i am aware of that,but still their internet service is couple of routers and brases, u do not have a backbone in the country you are simply using someone else's, yea yea you can add 100 servers for caching offloading or whatever but that doesn't change the fact that u can run an ISP in lebanon with a couple bgp router for your ASN couple other routers and a bras or 2.And it is not just "few servers". Are you aware that Google, Facebook, Akamai, Netflix and many others running part of their offloading infrastructure at private ISPs?
i will not pretend to know how they do their things but seeing example 172.16.45.3 --> 172.16.45.5--> 172.16.46.1 etc... and all with similar ping meaning close proximity, feels so weird and unnecessary, but what do i know.Thats just not correct understanding of ISP infrastructure.
US ISP might have infrastructure stretched all across the country, just because of country size.
ISP in Lebanon might have all hops in reserved subnets (10/8, 172.16/12, etc) cause they are not wasting real IPs, but that doesn't means it is one place, or stretched all across the country.
You cannot judge ISP infrastructure by traceroute unless you know exactly where each hop are and what it is doing.
Assuming anything just by numbers of hops or subnets - is not proper way at all.
I have some ISPs where DDoS protection scheme generate 1-2 hops with ips 10.x.x.x which are same as previous ones, but they are located abroad, in IX locations.
- Edited
Until recently Ogero was restricting their unlimited service plans by locking DSL modem speed. That means if you are subscribed to 4Mbit unlimited, you will get certain limits on download and upload. Private ISPs kept speed on physical channel unrestricted, but shaped "at their side" in L3 QoS.DNA wroteman u are mixing things up, u are talking about ogero as if most of the users and ISPs arent using their dsl to begin with, if ogero's upload is small switching to any other isp results in worse performance because Ogero is your DSP and upload will stay the same, i never said dont go with private ISPs when they can provide u service using their own infrastructure, but from my experience ogero's internet is the most stable its actually great no issues whatsoever i see no point in switching to private when i am connected to Ogeros DSLAM unless i am going microwave 4G or something
Thats why upload speed on equal service plans on private companies was better. Not sure about now.
Microwave is mixed bag as well. Sometimes you are lucky, sometimes DSP have shitty hop where his batteries get discharged each night and you have no internet, or they have interference and you get constant packetloss.DNA wrote btw microwave is great for coorporate users across the country i mean without it its almost impossible to get anything done with ogero in most regions. all corporate users i work with have private isps and i even recommend this route, their support is better GDS support is very good also.
You definitely have no idea how telecom operators all over the world work.DNA wrote but as home users they are worse than ogero they are using Ogero's infrastructure to reach the whole country and make a buck yet they don't provide support and can easily blame ogero thats how its going, u can't provide a service with no support, but they are getting away with it stop denying that fact man and no i do not have to pay u to come fix my internet, its part of your business
Most of end-user ordinary services doesn't include on-site visits, unless it is physical media issues. It is cheaper to lose them, than handle problematic users. In most of cases they have to either upgrade to higher type of service, or leave.
You can complain to support about connectivity issues to some resources, protocol issues, etc, it will be collected and if it is statistically significant(multiple complaints) - it will reach techies.
But if you have some exotic problems specific to your setup only, best bet to hire independent engineer to fix that.
Surprise surprise, since ishtirak prices are regulated and enforced by government, and they dont allow them to include depreciation costs, most likely they have right to include such thing on bill when generator is broken. You dont like - you don't pay, install your own solar and your generator and let's see how much more or less you will pay.DNA wrote That reminded me of our "ishtirak" guy if his generator broke he used to include on the bill "فرق صيانة" lol
like running a business should be 100% profit no costs or anything.
And yes, what is a point doing business that is not profitable? Is ishtirak guy mother Theresa or what?
Another thing they run their business unprofessionally and too high overhead and too high profit margin, and if someone know he can do better and cheaper, he do his own setup and disconnect ishtirak, instead of nagging and trying to force ishtirak to be less profitable. Thats how free market works.
Thats not correct. Ogero use on their BGP P2P links with ISP 172.x IP's, some ISPs use such ranges on BRAS, some IX use such IP's between BGP peers too.i will not pretend to know how they do their things but seeing example 172.16.45.3 --> 172.16.45.5--> 172.16.46.1 etc... and all with similar ping meaning close proximity, feels so weird and unnecessary, but what do i know.
Sorry, but you talk complete nonsense here.yes i am aware of that,but still their internet service is couple of routers and brases, u do not have a backbone in the country you are simply using someone else's, yea yea you can add 100 servers for caching offloading or whatever but that doesn't change the fact that u can run an ISP in lebanon with a couple bgp router for your ASN couple other routers and a bras or 2.
You know a couple of words and general information about how providers work, but you have no idea why, for example, having your own BGP is essential, what freedom it gives (prepends, communities, etc), how private ISPs can provide better latency to selected users than ordinary user of Ogero, or better quality, and etc.
Funny fact, there was a couple of ISP who thought they can run with "just ASN, bgp router and BRAS or 2" - they went out of business very fast and sold their equipment and license.
sorry for not quoting
i don't agree with you that telecom doesnt include on site visits, well i lived in dubai and some time in europe and if i call and tell them i have no connection they will ask couple questions and do their diagnoses and the next day they will knock on my door free of charge if nothing on my side needs replacement.. thats my experience
i know some have extra support packages but i don't think anyone will keep you without internet if the problem is from their installed equipment.
i dont know how it feels logical to you that the generator owner who takes 10$ subscription can charge extra to fix his generator, the 10$ subscribtion is there for this exact reason maintanance staff and this kind of thing so to bag the 10$ and take extra thats BS in any case the guy got called out he no longer does it...imagine he has a 20 year old generator that breaks every month thats his problem not mine buy a better one dude. .we are not the ones running caritas!
It is like going to a bakery and u buy your bread for 1$ and the next day prices increase at a specific location rise to 2$ for that day due to a failure on a machine so they can have money to fix it.. come on mannn that does not make any sense any depreciation failures maintenance is paid from the profits and base price which should include a small margin for such things.
anyway if you think that kind of business model is good in a free market then i have nothing more to say thats your opinion man.
you say i talk complete non sense and i know a word or 2 about ISPs,
yet amazingly u confirm that such isps can exist i dont care if they run out of business or not i said the minimum requirements in lebanon since the heavy lifting is done by Ogero.
heck u can run an "ISP" off a 100$ mikrotik and become the infamous cable guy. so no i am not talking complete non sense as confirmed by yourself these type of ISPs exist and they have a fair cut of the market and they are still running strong in villages and rural areas.
checking lebanon ASNs have a lot of barely known ISPs are u comparing those to the big names? i was not implying in anyway that IDM for example is running of couple of routers lol
we are going back and forth in this and one thing is leading to another ,i respect your view on this matter but i know where are u coming from so to be expected, these type of conversations are better said irl not on a forum we spammed this thread enough already *sorry admins*
i appreciate your help around here man have a good day!
i don't agree with you that telecom doesnt include on site visits, well i lived in dubai and some time in europe and if i call and tell them i have no connection they will ask couple questions and do their diagnoses and the next day they will knock on my door free of charge if nothing on my side needs replacement.. thats my experience
i know some have extra support packages but i don't think anyone will keep you without internet if the problem is from their installed equipment.
i dont know how it feels logical to you that the generator owner who takes 10$ subscription can charge extra to fix his generator, the 10$ subscribtion is there for this exact reason maintanance staff and this kind of thing so to bag the 10$ and take extra thats BS in any case the guy got called out he no longer does it...imagine he has a 20 year old generator that breaks every month thats his problem not mine buy a better one dude. .we are not the ones running caritas!
It is like going to a bakery and u buy your bread for 1$ and the next day prices increase at a specific location rise to 2$ for that day due to a failure on a machine so they can have money to fix it.. come on mannn that does not make any sense any depreciation failures maintenance is paid from the profits and base price which should include a small margin for such things.
anyway if you think that kind of business model is good in a free market then i have nothing more to say thats your opinion man.
you say i talk complete non sense and i know a word or 2 about ISPs,
yet amazingly u confirm that such isps can exist i dont care if they run out of business or not i said the minimum requirements in lebanon since the heavy lifting is done by Ogero.
heck u can run an "ISP" off a 100$ mikrotik and become the infamous cable guy. so no i am not talking complete non sense as confirmed by yourself these type of ISPs exist and they have a fair cut of the market and they are still running strong in villages and rural areas.
checking lebanon ASNs have a lot of barely known ISPs are u comparing those to the big names? i was not implying in anyway that IDM for example is running of couple of routers lol
we are going back and forth in this and one thing is leading to another ,i respect your view on this matter but i know where are u coming from so to be expected, these type of conversations are better said irl not on a forum we spammed this thread enough already *sorry admins*
i appreciate your help around here man have a good day!
I dont think it is worth discussing, when you are trying to dictate how ISP, ishtirak and others should run their business, while you never tried to do that, in Lebanon.
Its matter of fact, that few of those who still run business do it like this and "take it or leave it", and not because they are greedy a-holes, but just because it is only remaining way to keep things afloat in their opinion.
Its matter of fact, that few of those who still run business do it like this and "take it or leave it", and not because they are greedy a-holes, but just because it is only remaining way to keep things afloat in their opinion.
Hello, this thread caught my attention.
Looking up how *Asymetric* digital subscriber line works over *Asynchronous* tramission modes will come up with multiple results sharing similar information. With the limited number of channels and narrow bandwidth of this half-duplex technology over copper at the last mile of the journey, the witnessed behavior is normal.
Now adding multiple devices to the mix, and assuming those devices communicate wirelessly with a modem which does not support mu-mimo technology on upload and on download, the ping increases even more as older wireless transmission protocols suffer from the same half-duplex issue as ATM.
But even if I'm pinging from a wired devices, I witness the same increase in ping you might add, correct. This eliminates the half-duplex factor from wireless communications however, the modem follows a first in first out pattern in transmission usually hence an additional increase in ping.
It is also very important to consider noise and interference wireless and adsl tranmissions are susceptible to.
Ping counts the total time of the round trip from source to destination.
Traceroute pings all hops to show that beautiful map but misses to detail the reason behind the delay and the actual cause of it as traceroue functions over TCP/IP and is unaware of the underlying hardware transmission modes hence does not make it an efficient / conclusive testing mechanism.
Put simply, you can either upload or download at the same time and your data has to wait for its turn to move around hence the increased ping.
These mentioned phenomenons are barely noticible over technologies such as VDSL and GPON with high end modems due to higher bandwidth and improved protocols / hardware.
Solution? Discuss the possibility to upgrade to VDSL or Fiber with ogero support team if available in your area. They are very responsive over email and social media.
ADSL is a very old technology indeed. A plan was put to upgrade the last mile technology for all subscribers but budgets were cut by consecutive governments since 2017 hence the delivery of 30% only of the total goal according to Ogero officials who are aware of this.
Some impressive information worth mentioning:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Each DSLAM is connected to the core switches with multiple / redundant 10Gbps links to ensure no bottlenecks.
MPLS and DWDM interconnect central offices with with smallest offices over at least 40Gbps. Larger offices with larger capacities indeed.
Knowing how DWDM works implies how capacities can be virtually increased on demand..
International capacities are at 600Gbps+ with upgrades planned and in motion.
Ogero routes traffic through 3+ international providers based on best quality and capacity available. Yet some ISPs demand to be routed through specific international providers for certain "concerns".
Some local content distribution networks are deployed over the national network and more CDNs from more providers are being deployed as the writing of this reply to improve the quality of the connection and reduce latency.
PPPOE credentials are provided to subscribers over email with limited bundles over their responsibility yet not to unlimited bundles to combat fraudulent activity.
Programming centers are listed on the website and are present in 10 strategic locations close to everyone due to short-staffing.
Ogero's team provides support and maintenance free of charge to their subscribers, to ISPs and to ISP customers over the local network alike!!
Now with unawareness of the above mentioned, or just out of lazyness, the easiest getaway for ISPs and their affiliates is to badmouth Ogero and its short-staffed team who have to cater for everyone including private ISPs and their customers over Ogero's DSP.
@nuclearcat, I was expecting better explanation heik heik you went into technicalities and the badmouthing came as the cherry on top.
You in specific are aware what the fixed core network is capable of and how it was re-engineered with no bottlenecks. Yes, there is always room for improvement however, we are confident enough of the equipment in place and are confident that 90% of the issues faced by subscribers over the copper network are as detailed above. Afterall, it is no easy responsibility to cater for hundreds of thousands of officially accounted subscribers and multiple more hundreds of thousands that aren't ;)
Looking up how *Asymetric* digital subscriber line works over *Asynchronous* tramission modes will come up with multiple results sharing similar information. With the limited number of channels and narrow bandwidth of this half-duplex technology over copper at the last mile of the journey, the witnessed behavior is normal.
Now adding multiple devices to the mix, and assuming those devices communicate wirelessly with a modem which does not support mu-mimo technology on upload and on download, the ping increases even more as older wireless transmission protocols suffer from the same half-duplex issue as ATM.
But even if I'm pinging from a wired devices, I witness the same increase in ping you might add, correct. This eliminates the half-duplex factor from wireless communications however, the modem follows a first in first out pattern in transmission usually hence an additional increase in ping.
It is also very important to consider noise and interference wireless and adsl tranmissions are susceptible to.
Ping counts the total time of the round trip from source to destination.
Traceroute pings all hops to show that beautiful map but misses to detail the reason behind the delay and the actual cause of it as traceroue functions over TCP/IP and is unaware of the underlying hardware transmission modes hence does not make it an efficient / conclusive testing mechanism.
Put simply, you can either upload or download at the same time and your data has to wait for its turn to move around hence the increased ping.
These mentioned phenomenons are barely noticible over technologies such as VDSL and GPON with high end modems due to higher bandwidth and improved protocols / hardware.
Solution? Discuss the possibility to upgrade to VDSL or Fiber with ogero support team if available in your area. They are very responsive over email and social media.
ADSL is a very old technology indeed. A plan was put to upgrade the last mile technology for all subscribers but budgets were cut by consecutive governments since 2017 hence the delivery of 30% only of the total goal according to Ogero officials who are aware of this.
Some impressive information worth mentioning:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Each DSLAM is connected to the core switches with multiple / redundant 10Gbps links to ensure no bottlenecks.
MPLS and DWDM interconnect central offices with with smallest offices over at least 40Gbps. Larger offices with larger capacities indeed.
Knowing how DWDM works implies how capacities can be virtually increased on demand..
International capacities are at 600Gbps+ with upgrades planned and in motion.
Ogero routes traffic through 3+ international providers based on best quality and capacity available. Yet some ISPs demand to be routed through specific international providers for certain "concerns".
Some local content distribution networks are deployed over the national network and more CDNs from more providers are being deployed as the writing of this reply to improve the quality of the connection and reduce latency.
PPPOE credentials are provided to subscribers over email with limited bundles over their responsibility yet not to unlimited bundles to combat fraudulent activity.
Programming centers are listed on the website and are present in 10 strategic locations close to everyone due to short-staffing.
Ogero's team provides support and maintenance free of charge to their subscribers, to ISPs and to ISP customers over the local network alike!!
Now with unawareness of the above mentioned, or just out of lazyness, the easiest getaway for ISPs and their affiliates is to badmouth Ogero and its short-staffed team who have to cater for everyone including private ISPs and their customers over Ogero's DSP.
@nuclearcat, I was expecting better explanation heik heik you went into technicalities and the badmouthing came as the cherry on top.
You in specific are aware what the fixed core network is capable of and how it was re-engineered with no bottlenecks. Yes, there is always room for improvement however, we are confident enough of the equipment in place and are confident that 90% of the issues faced by subscribers over the copper network are as detailed above. Afterall, it is no easy responsibility to cater for hundreds of thousands of officially accounted subscribers and multiple more hundreds of thousands that aren't ;)
- Edited
@MustaMT let's go step by step, if you wish so.
I worked in this cesspit that is called ISP business in Lebanon for many years and i am glad i am not depending on it anymore, so i can speak more.
While i had pleasant experience with you, @ikreidieh, some core engineers, some heroes who at any weather repair damages, i can say certain part of Ogero doing amazing job, but i cannot say same about rest of Ogero, especially those handling end-users.
It is not bad-mouthing, it is a matter of fact i have good reasons to be VERY unhappy.
<<i deleted part of telling story of corruption schemes that was running pre-Kreidieh era, but fact that involved company is still supplier and employees who was involved still working - is unpleasant, isn't it? not sure if you are aware about it>>
On end-users:
1) I remember stories, when ISP want to get user hooked, he is being delayed, because certain employee at centrale expect to be tipped.
2) I have endless stories, when private company DSL user as he is forced to use Ogero as (monopolistic) DSP, and user experience certain problems with line, Ogero support freely can say to user, that they will be glad to take such user on Ogero directly. This is insanely unfair competition, but... welcome to Lebanon. And this is hostile behavior as well, don't expect me praising such people.
3)I have several friends, who faced unfortunate fate of those ~10% who have line quality issues or being cut off due some line damage, and as soon as such thing happen - bad luck, some of them kept paying several month, using mobile internet, without any hope for repair. Good if they have some wasta and can push things...
4)The fact that unlimited bundles was(not sure if still) practically as dedicated, as Ogero dont have facilities(or knowledge?) to implement FUP, and ISP bulk bandwidth cost more, and those unlimited bundles are majority of Ogero users - classical case of unfair competition as well.
So, do you think it is healthy and ok? Should i be glad and thankful for that state of things and praise them?
1)Should i say that i discussed it with Kreidieh and mentioned, how it is solved in other countries: just by locking up user to specific DSLAM port. If for all these years Ogero didnt make that possible, i'm sorry, but thats fault of team that work on this matters.
I'm not talking that any other ISP in the world implement TR-069 provisioning and their users dont need to go anywhere and waste time reconfiguring modems, this problem is just doesn't exist in proper DSL/FTTx network.
2)Is private ISPs to apply for DSL lines for their customers still need to upload that hilarious preformatted Excel file to the page that was developed in 199x?
3)Where is promised same level support portal for ISPs on DSL, as Ogero provide for it's users? ISPs till now dont have any access even to portion of info that direct Ogero users have, and unable to troubleshoot their users properly.
Thats few more examples, while one part of Ogero doing very well, other is incredibly lagging behind.
Classical:
"Nobody else except you complaining", "Yes we are policing bandwidth like this, you might lack 1Gbps , and get used to losing that"(that days it was $55000/month).
Or maybe incredible story where just i noticed that certain IP's are getting packetloss, and it ended up it was fault on one of 40G links in bundle where bandwidth was balanced?
You know that i spent more than 4 damn month trying to convince Ogero team about this, that issue exist, getting bounced back that "i am wasting their time", and finally i got out of patience and we got even for short moment on heated words with @ikreidieh?
Worse than that, same people perfectly know i discovered similar issue with balancing years ago, it was on Ipoque QoS, but yet again, they refused to believe me and kept playing ping-pong "issue on your side".
And every day of this 4 month i had to explain users, management and was trying to make mission impossible workarounds so customers dont face this packetloss.
So, excuse me, but there have been more than enough reasons to accuse Ogero of negligence and faults they refused to admit over the years.
But i have to admit, latest backbone team is doing incredibly well and i have no issues with them at all.
Can't say so about DSL/end-users part.
And to say last, if it was FAIR competition, i'm quite sure Ogero wont have so many end-users :)
I worked in this cesspit that is called ISP business in Lebanon for many years and i am glad i am not depending on it anymore, so i can speak more.
While i had pleasant experience with you, @ikreidieh, some core engineers, some heroes who at any weather repair damages, i can say certain part of Ogero doing amazing job, but i cannot say same about rest of Ogero, especially those handling end-users.
It is not bad-mouthing, it is a matter of fact i have good reasons to be VERY unhappy.
<<i deleted part of telling story of corruption schemes that was running pre-Kreidieh era, but fact that involved company is still supplier and employees who was involved still working - is unpleasant, isn't it? not sure if you are aware about it>>
On end-users:
1) I remember stories, when ISP want to get user hooked, he is being delayed, because certain employee at centrale expect to be tipped.
2) I have endless stories, when private company DSL user as he is forced to use Ogero as (monopolistic) DSP, and user experience certain problems with line, Ogero support freely can say to user, that they will be glad to take such user on Ogero directly. This is insanely unfair competition, but... welcome to Lebanon. And this is hostile behavior as well, don't expect me praising such people.
3)I have several friends, who faced unfortunate fate of those ~10% who have line quality issues or being cut off due some line damage, and as soon as such thing happen - bad luck, some of them kept paying several month, using mobile internet, without any hope for repair. Good if they have some wasta and can push things...
4)The fact that unlimited bundles was(not sure if still) practically as dedicated, as Ogero dont have facilities(or knowledge?) to implement FUP, and ISP bulk bandwidth cost more, and those unlimited bundles are majority of Ogero users - classical case of unfair competition as well.
So, do you think it is healthy and ok? Should i be glad and thankful for that state of things and praise them?
Sorry to say, but this trivial problem is solved everywhere in the world, but not in Ogero.PPPOE credentials are provided to subscribers over email with limited bundles over their responsibility yet not to unlimited bundles to combat fraudulent activity.
1)Should i say that i discussed it with Kreidieh and mentioned, how it is solved in other countries: just by locking up user to specific DSLAM port. If for all these years Ogero didnt make that possible, i'm sorry, but thats fault of team that work on this matters.
I'm not talking that any other ISP in the world implement TR-069 provisioning and their users dont need to go anywhere and waste time reconfiguring modems, this problem is just doesn't exist in proper DSL/FTTx network.
2)Is private ISPs to apply for DSL lines for their customers still need to upload that hilarious preformatted Excel file to the page that was developed in 199x?
3)Where is promised same level support portal for ISPs on DSL, as Ogero provide for it's users? ISPs till now dont have any access even to portion of info that direct Ogero users have, and unable to troubleshoot their users properly.
Thats few more examples, while one part of Ogero doing very well, other is incredibly lagging behind.
Ok as you force me to speak proof, before Ogero was short-staffed, i dont know if you are aware, i had quite tough conflict with old backbone team endless number of times.Now with unawareness of the above mentioned, or just out of lazyness, the easiest getaway for ISPs and their affiliates is to badmouth Ogero and its short-staffed team who have to cater for everyone including private ISPs and their customers over Ogero's DSP.
Classical:
"Nobody else except you complaining", "Yes we are policing bandwidth like this, you might lack 1Gbps , and get used to losing that"(that days it was $55000/month).
Or maybe incredible story where just i noticed that certain IP's are getting packetloss, and it ended up it was fault on one of 40G links in bundle where bandwidth was balanced?
You know that i spent more than 4 damn month trying to convince Ogero team about this, that issue exist, getting bounced back that "i am wasting their time", and finally i got out of patience and we got even for short moment on heated words with @ikreidieh?
Worse than that, same people perfectly know i discovered similar issue with balancing years ago, it was on Ipoque QoS, but yet again, they refused to believe me and kept playing ping-pong "issue on your side".
And every day of this 4 month i had to explain users, management and was trying to make mission impossible workarounds so customers dont face this packetloss.
So, excuse me, but there have been more than enough reasons to accuse Ogero of negligence and faults they refused to admit over the years.
But i have to admit, latest backbone team is doing incredibly well and i have no issues with them at all.
Can't say so about DSL/end-users part.
And to say last, if it was FAIR competition, i'm quite sure Ogero wont have so many end-users :)