Unlimited is not unlimited after all!

Dark_angel · January 4 2007

Well, living in a world where 1 == 1 isn't anymore true and unlimited == unlimited isn't equal to true either.

When you pay 40$ a month for an Unlimited connection and after 3 monthes you realise that your connection has dropped to 5 KB/s ( 128 Kbps connection ) and you ask yourself what the hell is going on, my ISP is the R0X0rs!!!

After a few calls you conclude that your internet connection has been shaped because you have downloaded 13 GB the last month and they classify you as an abuser because you have abused the Unlimited privilege ( Go Figure!)

Now, as a human being you try to focus and understand the meaning of equality in Lebanon. does really Unlimited != Unlimited became the standard of communication between ISPs and customers.

In the end, when you live in a world full of bullshits you must pay the price some day and that day has come for me.

Well done VISP.

Last edited by Dark_angel (January 4 2007)

WizaRd · January 4 2007

What can i say... move out of here, or die trying.

rolf · January 4 2007

sorry to hear about that
you have to compare your connection to lebanese standards, and not international standards... and not believe in miracles :(

Last edited by rolf (January 4 2007)

mezin · January 4 2007

bass 13 gb ? i can abuse mine for up to 750mb x 30 = 22.5 gb ... but the 750 limit here can be bypassed to approx 900mb

Dark_angel · January 5 2007

The problem isn't here only,

When you talk to someone from VISP, and I am not gonna list the names, he says to you that I didn't buy my AMG car from your money or when you call their technical support GURU and say to you check your provider he will talk with our admins ( as if the problem is with my provider and not with VISP) and when one night you manage to get yourself out of this shaped/raped list to see in the morning that you are back in in the list.

They manage to call you an abuser because you downloaded the last month one game ( 5 GB), couple of movies ( 2 GB), Music ( 500 MB), Ebooks and some various .NET programming video tutorials ( 3 GB) and your normal browsing consumption of valuable VISP KBs.

Go Figure!

Last edited by Dark_angel (January 5 2007)

rolf · January 5 2007

So you managed to download over 10 GB in one month ?
What are the quota limitations on similar offers by other providers? (IDM, cyberia, etc...)
I'm sorry to hear about your somewhat bad experience.

Last edited by rolf (January 5 2007)

rolf · January 5 2007

tell you something. I can tell you dedicated is not dedicated after all too.

nuclearcat · January 5 2007

For your information, MOST of broadband ISP's they have unofficial limit of downloads. Sure it vary and depends on price of backbone. In lebanon, it is now most expensive in the world, plus because of political situation, they dont give upgrades at any price.

http://www.broadbandchoices.co.uk/hidde … dband.html
Especially

Download penalties and fair usage
Do you use your unlimited broadband connection to download music, movies and high resolution photos? Is your package really unlimited? A recent ICM survey found that 71 per cent of users thought their broadband package was unlimited but 75 per cent of the deals out there actually have limits on how much you can download.
This means that you could end up being charged for persistently exceeding your download limit. Here is what you could end up paying:
Eclipse option 1 – 2GB limit, £1.75 per GB over limit
Pipex Mini 8MB – 2GB limit, £2.70 per GB over limit
Madasafish Max – 5GB limit, £2.00 per GB over limit
“Hidden” download limits also exist in the form of fair usage policies. These are put in place by your ISP to ensure that your downloading doesn’t affect other people’s connections.
In accordance with their fair usage policy, some ISPs, including Virgin and BT, can even upgrade your broadband to a more appropriate and more expensive package, so you will have to pay a higher upfront fee every month.

Your connection is still unlimited, but speed is lowered. Such thing called "Fair usage policy". Let's say 100 users, who paid total $4000 (but ISP will get for bandwidth only $10-$15 from it, it means let's say $1200), by lebanese prices it is price of 1 Mbit/s (but theory only, in practice it is more expensive). Means 316/GB month, and because most of people download at day - 158GB. Means 1.5Gb limit for each person. When you take your 12GB, it means some users will expirience worst connection. Unfair. So if you want to get more - pay more.
Calculations just for example.

Dark_angel · January 5 2007

^^^
Thanks for the clarification.

The thing is most customers don't know what goes behind the scene concerning bandwith cost and such.

If the unlimited word is becoming irrelevant then why many ISPs are still adopting it?

And when you lower the download speed the connection becomes limited speed wize and limited download wize because you are not in normal mode - Shaping mode.

Why you guys don't post the quota for each account type that way users like me will be aware of the limitation and try to adapt to it?

What I would like to know is what is my quota as a 128 Kbps 40$ subscriber at VISP?

Last edited by Dark_angel (January 5 2007)

nuclearcat · January 5 2007

Pure meaning of word unlimited - unlimited speed and unlimited bandwidth. There is nothing like that in the world. The same meaning, free speech - it is not really free speech, and free calls - also usually includes some charges. Our meaning of word "unlimited" - it is flat rate account, with variable speed, and it will not stop, if you use "too much", just will shape you down, so other users can have acceptable quality also.

About quota, with "cable resellers" it is difficult, since each reseller have different pricing. And my system giving not fixed quota, it depends on customer "profile", how much he pay each month, how much ISP gets money from reseller, what is his bandwidth usage profile, and etc. That system developed to give fair bandwidth allocation for each user. Right now, you are from 5.6% percent of users, who is called "heavy users", and you are in latest class of "heavy users", which is 0.05% from overall amount of users. System is not strict also in limits, and will be changed for less restrictions in future, for example for night downloads, i will count less, or even will not count, if it is not peak time.

Clear clarification of quota is available only on "quota limited" accounts. There is 100meg/day, or 1Gb per month and etc.

Dark_angel · January 5 2007

Heavy users are heavy users and they will always try to find an ISP that suits them.

I am paying 40$ for my 128 Kbps, and I guess 10 to 12 GB per month is the way to go.

Unless my ISP is giving me the 20$ account ( 5 GB per month)!

nuclearcat · January 5 2007

There is buffet restaurants. Most of people just take their dish or two, or three and eat them. But there is some people who is packing food in bags, because they are paying $40, and telling "we are like that".
Just guess what will happen with them, and does restaurants will cry, because such people will leave them?

nuclearcat · January 5 2007

BTW. Funny thing, i have wireless to my home, sure because i am working in company - i am not paying anything for it. But one month ago, my boss limit my speed, because i was downloading too much. :-D
And i had to accept it. Thats reasonable, i am not a god, and even owner of company also not allowed to take unacceptable amount of bandwidth, otherwise with such "holes", business will be ruined.

Dark_angel · January 5 2007

We are just ordering big meals and if VISP can't afford preparing them just tell the potential customers that we can't serve such type of meals or make a list of prices that is visible and clear to us and not labeled inside a vague unlimited keyword.

And make sure to enlighten your cable resellers about it too, so when we ask them if the connection has any limitations he will then know what to reply instead of throwing the generic word unlimited.

You are telling me go eat the amount of food you can afford to for just 40$ and when I eat a lot you say oh !you are eating too much for a 40$ we will give you instead a small portions of food for the time being until you become accomodated with it.

That will never work.

Last edited by Dark_angel (January 5 2007)

nuclearcat · January 5 2007

You are telling never work, when it works on all major ISP's in world, i am not talking even lebanon.

Padre · January 5 2007

hey hey hey .... do not say that it's like that everywhere !!
it's true that some type have limitations like the one above, but our neighbors for example and my fellows all around the world, well they leech like 45G to 120G a month without fearing quota and they DO have a higher speed , or just normal broadand users. so when u have limitations, say you do, you wanna go by the FU policy, then be kind and state that to. is it so hard to say "Hey you got unlimited/restricted by our FU policy"and state what's ur policy ?
i know the problem isn't rom VISP or from the ISPs and i know that Ogero is being a dick, buts thats one of the gifts you get to have for being lebanese and living in lebanon i guess :(

Last edited by Padre (January 5 2007)

nuclearcat · January 5 2007

Padre, i am not wrong, your neighbors is on ADSL and you are not in lebanon?
ADSL is MUCH more comfortable for ISP, cause he knows for sure, where ADSL ends, who is user, how much long time he is staying, and etc. Plus, compare $1xxx-$5xxx/Mbit, and for example in EU 1Mbit costs $70 :-D
With cable... reseller put profit - how much he want(maybe really $40 account costs $17, who knows...), ISP in most of situations dont have right to tell customer, what really he have, cause reseller just will leave him in this case, Ogero is not letting ISP's to use in cheap and comfortable way underground lines (copper and fiber), and etc. etc. etc.
It is VERY complicated here. Even Ukraine (3rd world country, with big political problems), where i born, there is price for end-user $15/month, for unlimited 128/32K ADSL connection, with perfect latency and quality. Prices in capital city - $50/Megabit for ISP's.
If in lebanon politicians continue like that, and they will not remember about telecommunication sector... well, we will be on technological level of afganistan soon.

teodorgeorgiev · January 5 2007

unforgiven wrote:

bass 13 gb ? i can abuse mine for up to 750mb x 30 = 22.5 gb ... but the 750 limit here can be bypassed to approx 900mb

In Lebanon you can drive as fast as you want and no police man will stop you.
But the roads are really crappy on some places. There are no rules, everyone can hit you and he is not to blame.
And...by driving at this high speed you can kill a child... ...

In Europe, there are strict speed limitations. There are rules on the road and traffic-police officers who watch
for these rules. The roads are very good though and car accidents with lethal character happen less than in Lebanon.

So, for whom is Lebanon the better thing? For the brainless idiots = road murderers.

rolf · January 5 2007

Padre wrote:

i know the problem isn't rom VISP or from the ISPs and i know that Ogero is being a dick, buts thats one of the gifts you get to have for being lebanese and living in lebanon i guess :(

I am sticking with VISP because they arae the only ISP to give me 64k at an affordable price. But I agree it is not acceptable marketing not to disclose limitations.

teodorgeorgiev · January 5 2007

Dark_angel wrote:

The problem isn't here only,
When you talk to someone from VISP, and I am not gonna list the names, he says to you that I didn't buy my AMG car from your money or when you call their technical support GURU and say to you check your provider he will talk with our admins ( as if the problem is with my provider and not with VISP) and when one night you manage to get yourself out of this shaped/raped list to see in the morning that you are back in in the list.
They manage to call you an abuser because you downloaded the last month one game ( 5 GB), couple of movies ( 2 GB), Music ( 500 MB), Ebooks and some various .NET programming video tutorials ( 3 GB) and your normal browsing consumption of valuable VISP KBs.
Go Figure!

And how is it if you have a problem with another ISP? How much time it takes you to take a reply at least?

Or we are talking the "arabic" way --> "I will say only the part of the truth that is favourable to me, the other part, even if it is also true, I will not mention it,

What I can tell you is - we tried to run the unlimited connection. But our mistake is - we are really dealing with abusers. It is the fact, you know it even more than me. The only difference between me and you on this is that this fact is unfavourable for you.

Here at my place I also have the unlimited connection. But trust me, if run it 24x7 (leaving my PC to
download when I sleep or whilst I am at work), the ISP will call me and ask me to upgrade to a corporate account.
I just checked my traffic, I barely reach the 10GB limit (the avegage is 8.3GB). I also download e-books, read articles, download some patches, music.

And btw, I am buying my games from the shop. It is not just that you are poor and I am rich, it is in the mentality.

And I know what you will tell me - I am poor, I can not afford to pay for the legal games. Ok, Joseph, we are also poor, we do not want to go bankrupt by allowing to all the abusers to leach 24x7.

And the last thing I will tell you is something from the Bible - "Throw a stone at me those you who have less sins than me".

It is OK, to critizise us if you have less sins than us. We ran the free dial-up connection. What some Lebanese did - they started to sell this connection for money to people who have little clue of PCs. Why don't you criticise these people?

Why don't you criticise the people who buy a home account and share it between the entire building or
run business on it (downloading movies, mp3s and games and selling them for money).

When I asked you what does your father work, you ran away directly from the question?
Why, Joseph? The "guilty consciene"?

Because maybe your father is one of these taxi drivers who try to convince me that $1 = 1000LB, by abusing my lack of knowledge on the local tariffs. Or one of these car mechanics, who steal good-condition parts
from your car by replacing them with worse ones. Or these water-plumbing technicians, who leave your
water pipes in awful condition so water starts leaking after a month or two?

Why don't you open face to face? It is good to shoot with the bow hiding inside a bush. All the people now see VISP face, let them see yours also!

Prove to all of us that you have less sins that us and then criticise us to the bottom.

Look at the mountain of rubbish in your backyard first, not on the small hill in the backyard of your neighbour.

At least we tried. To give a decent connection. But yes - the abusers are a lot. And due to them the regular
people always suffer.

Why don't you criticise Ogero and some of the other ISPs for using dirty tricks to bring us down?

Rolf "kindly" refused to call Ogero and ask for an explanation... But I did not - I call Alfa (the mobile operator) and blamed them directly in being crooks by using illegal VoIP for their international phone lines (and then selling it to us as a regular international phone call). I called them with all the right words they deserve
to hear. I am not afraid, because I know that I am right. I know how to demand "what is mine" and I
know WHERE TO DEMAND IT FROM.

Until you shoot hiding in the bushes and shooting at the wrong direction - you won't have what I have.

rolf · January 5 2007

I dont know about other ISPs limit exept for cyberia

http://www.thisiscyberia.com/services/consumer/fair.htm

It is possible that they all have limits but dont disclose them. So this non-disclosure might actually be the standard.

But i still think VISP would be better in the long term, credibility and reputation wise if they were more precise in their offerings and not play on words like this. I mean at least on corporate contracts, come on guys :)

Last edited by rolf (January 5 2007)

nuclearcat · January 6 2007

Rolf, corporate is always important for us :-) They have highest priorities by the way.
End-user accounts, we have a problem, that resellers dont bother themself, and sell only cheapest accounts, even if it's not comfortable for user. Price vary seems, depends not on account speed, it depends how customer looks :-D
I will make more difference between accounts, but i will add advantages also, not only disadvantages.

Anyways, i increase limits right now, and i will analyse the situation more, to find a way, to not stress customers, and propose to them "fast" solution.

rolf · January 6 2007

Corporate account is OK :) it's just that the contrat is not so clear

Last edited by rolf (January 6 2007)

Dark_angel · January 6 2007

nuclearcat wrote:

You are telling never work, when it works on all major ISP's in world, i am not talking even lebanon.

Similar ISPs just hide behind the unlimited keyword to attract more customers.

I never realised that VISP would do that and act just in a similar way like many other ISPs, it seems you all breath the same air, aren't you?

It is your fault guys, just be clear with your customers and they will, in most cases adapt to their allowable amount of bandwith each month.

simply put, VISP stabbed me from behind and that isn't acceptable.

nuclearcat · January 6 2007

Dark_angel - about same air, you are right. The same ogero, the same prices, the same delays of installation...
You must expect such things, all other ISP's more old than us, and they hit a wall, that only few percent of users - making 30% of bandwidth load. We are not red cross, and we dont have saudi chartiable foundation behind us, and to survive in this market - we have to do the same.
If it's worry you too much, you can PM me your username, for remaining billing period i can delete your traffic, but only one time, it will give you back speed, because system will forget your old traffic. But you will have to think about amounts of downloads.

LebGeeks

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Unlimited is not unlimited after all!

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