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#1 July 26

stereotype
Member

Need an explanation on this connection issue

If, whenever, I do any of the following:

Load a website such as Gmail or Google
Open an app such as Instagram or TikTok
Load a YouTube video at any quality
Load a Spotify song

My internet connection literally poops itself, and the ping to my ISP's DNS server shoots from 10ms stable when my connection is unused to about 350ms and above for as long as I have any of the example tasks above being run.
Once this happens, everything becomes completely unusable on my network, whether it be trying to have multiple people use the connection to do basic things such as one person watching a YouTube video and the other trying to load TikTok because everything just starts loading really slow, or whether it be while someone is online gaming in the house where the latency jumps from 75ms average to EU servers all the way past 400ms+ until every single task is closed on the network for the latency to go back to normal.

Does this mean that I am being throttled by my ISP? Because to me, it just appears that that's the case, as I've never in the past had any similar issues with this ISP or with any other previous ISPs that I was with. There's no other logical explanation to me other than that, all the wires in my house were changed super recently less than a year ago and everything was and has been super good up until a few days ago after I paid my ISP to renew my internet connection, and it's been downhill since then.

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#2 July 27

nuclearcat
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

You need to go over proper troubleshooting procedure (traceroute, SNR/errors on modem and etc) with some network engineer.
I had exactly such issue by description, and i know i am directly hooked to dedicated connection which is great. Reason? Some bug in wifi drivers / incompatibility of my AP and laptop. And i know it might be literally anything on the path even before ISP, but might be ISP too as well.
And if you didnt make proper troubleshooting - unlikely (with current prices) ISP will bother to do it for free for you, unless you are corporate user, and will not take your report seriously.

Last edited by nuclearcat (July 27)

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#3 July 27

stereotype
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

nuclearcat wrote:

You need to go over proper troubleshooting procedure (traceroute, SNR/errors on modem and etc) with some network engineer.
I had exactly such issue by description, and i know i am directly hooked to dedicated connection which is great. Reason? Some bug in wifi drivers / incompatibility of my AP and laptop. And i know it might be literally anything on the path even before ISP, but might be ISP too as well.
And if you didnt make proper troubleshooting - unlikely (with current prices) ISP will bother to do it for free for you, unless you are corporate user, and will not take your report seriously.

I've already troubleshooted everything and there appears to be no issues from my end from what I've seen.

If you have anything you suggest I check then please do let me know and I'll have it checked.

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#4 July 27

nuclearcat
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

Start from traceroute and measuring on which hop latency start to increase, and then checking modem SNR/error rate/etc in case it is hop between modem and ISP.

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#5 July 28

stereotype
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

nuclearcat wrote:

Start from traceroute and measuring on which hop latency start to increase, and then checking modem SNR/error rate/etc in case it is hop between modem and ISP.

Sounds fair - traceroute to 8.8.8.8? Also, already checked modem stats and showed them to the ISP and they said everything is good on that end.

I just did a traceroute to 8.8.8.8 which is Google's DNS, what am I looking for here? I can see line 3 and line 4 have astronomically high latency/ping values.
"2250ms 2260ms 2344ms" & "1521ms 1911ms 2404ms" and these are with nothing being done on the network at all with only the device I'm doing the traceroute on connected.

Last edited by stereotype (July 28)

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#6 July 29

nuclearcat
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

That hops where latency increase is a culprit. If they belong to ISP - then it is ISP to blame and it is their responsibility to fix their shit or explain why you are throttled.
Customer usually first hops, if first and second hop fine and it is traditional "single modem/router" network - your network is ok and thats proof of it.
Most of network engineers able to segment traceroute hop by IPs to customer, ISP network (sometimes visible different parts of it) and their backbone, to identify bottleneck.

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#7 July 29

stereotype
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

nuclearcat wrote:

That hops where latency increase is a culprit. If they belong to ISP - then it is ISP to blame and it is their responsibility to fix their shit or explain why you are throttled.
Customer usually first hops, if first and second hop fine and it is traditional "single modem/router" network - your network is ok and thats proof of it.
Most of network engineers able to segment traceroute hop by IPs to customer, ISP network (sometimes visible different parts of it) and their backbone, to identify bottleneck.

Yeah the first and second lines are both fine with them being 5ms at most. I believe line 3 and line 4 belong to my ISP, but it's unfortunate because they still deny this being a problem from their end, I'm with THGV.

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#8 July 29

nuclearcat
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

For THGV it is tricky. Some hops inside THGV have latency because ICMP throttled. ping 10.0.25.10, thats internal host that should be bypassed.
Are you DSL or wireless/reseller?

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#9 July 29

stereotype
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

nuclearcat wrote:

For THGV it is tricky. Some hops inside THGV have latency because ICMP throttled. ping 10.0.25.10, thats internal host that should be bypassed.
Are you DSL or wireless/reseller?

Pinging 10.0.25.10 is <10ms when I only have 1 device connected to my network with nothing running at all, and as soon as I run anything that requires internet connection even if it's something as basic and simple as going on gmail.com, on any device, the ping to 10.0.25.10 skyrockets past 500ms and stays that way until I cease all internet connection usage.

I'm an ADSL user, this is an absolute joke, and they won't admit that something's busted on their end.

Last edited by stereotype (July 29)

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#10 July 30

nuclearcat
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

ping to 10.0.25.10 should not be "busted on their end", but let's assume its still possible. thats internal path and it is bypassed from bandwidth policy.

Few more important questions:
1)Is it behaving different at early morning?
2)Did you check your ADSL modem stats? What are up/down speeds?
3)Can you try to ping 192.168.99.1 ? This is internal IP of THGV LNS server, so internal path totally ruled out.

I need to know answers to those questions, so i can know if any of following true:
1)Problem between Ogero(centrale LAC) and THGV equipment. Likely not, but i will ask if there is recently complaints about same issue
2)Problem with termination server bandwidth policy
3)Problem is on your side

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#11 July 30

stereotype
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

nuclearcat wrote:

ping to 10.0.25.10 should not be "busted on their end", but let's assume its still possible. thats internal path and it is bypassed from bandwidth policy.

Few more important questions:
1)Is it behaving different at early morning?
2)Did you check your ADSL modem stats? What are up/down speeds?
3)Can you try to ping 192.168.99.1 ? This is internal IP of THGV LNS server, so internal path totally ruled out.

I need to know answers to those questions, so i can know if any of following true:
1)Problem between Ogero(centrale LAC) and THGV equipment. Likely not, but i will ask if there is recently complaints about same issue
2)Problem with termination server bandwidth policy
3)Problem is on your side

1) No
2) Yes, everything's as normal, up 1023 kbps/down 13000 kbps
3) Ping to 192.168.99.1 is between 10ms and 15ms when nothing is running on my network at all, and as soon as I run anything on my network that requires internet connection that same latency goes up past 500ms.

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#12 July 30

nuclearcat
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

That means unlikely it is THGV issue, as most of issues is load related and day dependent, also i just did checkup of all their systems and discussed with their techies, they said such complaints(ping goes higher during the load) they heard, but less than 5 customers, so it might be internal Ogero network related, which Ogero unlikely will bother to fix this days, but i am not entirely sure it is Ogero.
But definitely not THGV, as both DSL servers i checked and they are working fine, and ping 192.168.99.1 there is only one unit involved - THGV DSL server, and no other infrastructure.

As last resort, did you tried to use ethernet cable to modem? Sometimes it is just buggy modems, and on wifi path NAT offload doesnt work properly.

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#13 July 30

scorz
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

Hi guys, I face this issue on two Ogero DSL DSL lines, different locations (streets and buildings) but the same "central".

What happens in my case is whenever someone uploads, nothing will work anymore + ping is up to 1 second in some game -yes 900 ms-
I think when the app you've listed may sync something or do some upload that crash the internet.

I've tried contacting Ogero but no results, I ended up installing terranet microwave which بلا حسيدي is working fine.

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#14 July 30

stereotype
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

nuclearcat wrote:

That means unlikely it is THGV issue, as most of issues is load related and day dependent, also i just did checkup of all their systems and discussed with their techies, they said such complaints(ping goes higher during the load) they heard, but less than 5 customers, so it might be internal Ogero network related, which Ogero unlikely will bother to fix this days, but i am not entirely sure it is Ogero.
But definitely not THGV, as both DSL servers i checked and they are working fine, and ping 192.168.99.1 there is only one unit involved - THGV DSL server, and no other infrastructure.

As last resort, did you tried to use ethernet cable to modem? Sometimes it is just buggy modems, and on wifi path NAT offload doesnt work properly.

My ping doesn't only go higher during load, and the problems aren't coming from Ogero's end nor my end.

I guess THGV is simply cutting corners due to the economic crisis in order to increase profit, as all these problems just started happening out of nowhere after the new internet prices came out, and it seems like anyone related to this company is always either blaming Ogero or the customer for their own problems.

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#15 July 30

stereotype
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

scorz wrote:

Hi guys, I face this issue on two Ogero DSL DSL lines, different locations (streets and buildings) but the same "central".

What happens in my case is whenever someone uploads, nothing will work anymore + ping is up to 1 second in some game -yes 900 ms-
I think when the app you've listed may sync something or do some upload that crash the internet.

I've tried contacting Ogero but no results, I ended up installing terranet microwave which بلا حسيدي is working fine.

This is a common disadvantage with ADSL, and it's not really an ISP caused or related issue.

It's because up speeds are super low.

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#16 August 2

xterm
Moderator

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

I've cleaned up the posts that got heated and will keep the topic running. Troubleshooting is always a gray area, it's generally difficult for any one person to be conclusively right without having the full picture/details.

This topic may help others going through the same thing.

Thank you all for pitching in!

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#17 August 2

nuclearcat
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

xterm, it is not gray, it is tech, and troubleshooting is trivial, when customer give proper answers and have basic tech knowledge. I did created guidelines for support for such cases and did such troubleshooting myself endless number of times.
Also, let me clarify, i created all tech infrastructure on TH, and i am still running it, but sure not alone, with their team.
In this case it is clear that _one_ person can indeed identify issue and if it is in his zone of responsibility - fix it or provide detailed info that it will be fixed by third party (Ogero, but i can assure - they wont bulge doing that for one end-user).

For example:

newnetdb ~ # mtr 8.8.8.8 --report --report-cycles=10
Start: Tue Aug  2 12:54:28 2022
HOST: newnetdb                    Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
  1.|-- 192.168.1.1               0.0%    10  a b c d
  2.|-- 192.168.99.1                 0.0%    10  ....
  3.|-- 10.0.253.x                 0.0%    10  ....
  4.|-- 10.1.16.1                  0.0%    10  4547. 2832. 1500. 4547. 1216.0
  5.|-- 172.16.79.229              0.0%    10    0.2   0.2   0.2   0.2   0.0
  6.|-- ???                       100.0    10    0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0
  7.|-- 172.16.49.1                0.0%    10    1.2   1.2   1.1   1.8   0.0
  8.|-- 213.242.116.233            0.0%    10   37.7  43.5  37.5  80.1  13.8
  9.|-- 72.14.212.254              0.0%    10   37.6  37.6  37.5  37.8   0.0
  10.|-- 74.125.244.209             0.0%    10   37.8  37.7  37.7  37.8   0.0
  11.|-- 142.250.46.95              0.0%    10   38.7  38.9  38.2  42.1   1.1
10.|-- dns.google                 0.0%    10   37.6  37.6  37.6  37.7   0.0

Some hops i imitated, cause i dont have access to identical DSL account.
But it is obvious, thru monitoring traceroute, if latency start to jump on first hop - it is user wifi router.
On second hop it is usually ISP BRAS, if latency start to jitters there - it means either Ogero DSP issues, or ISP have problems on his BRAS, OR in some cases shaper issues on BRAS.
Then you can see those high values on hop 4 (probably also 3 have them), but they are normal if next hops have lower latency, it just means that router control-plane throttling ICMP, but what is important that latency on last hops is OK and such values can be ignored.
Sure i can provide references and proof for each word i did said.

Structure of Ogero network is approx like this
g041977.gif
And latency visibly increasing on LNS point, which is not easy to troubleshoot at all. Likely it is congestion at Ogero centrale, especially as user admit that it happened with him once on another ISP (and obvious logic, what is common in this case? Ogero infra)

But in current case user is withholding proper data (traceroute) and making ugly remarks before even troubleshooting completed.
I'm putting my nose in this issue and trying to solve his problem as my personal initiative, and I voluntarily donate my time, going to all extent explaining how things work, and instead of continuing, he jump abruptly to conclusions and make such accusational comments:

I guess THGV is simply cutting corners due to the economic crisis in order to increase profit, as all these problems just started happening out of nowhere after the new internet prices came out, and it seems like anyone related to this company is always either blaming Ogero or the customer for their own problems.

So, in a situation where a person is behaving disrespectfully - would you waste time on him?

P.S. Please dont delete this post, i wrote it respectfully as i can and i believe it doesnt violate any rules and also have learning value, as if any tech trying to help and go out of his duty responsibilities, user should have some respect as well to him and his company.

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#18 August 6

DNA
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

I respect you taking the time to help out here, but i have been working in this field for years and almost all issues we faced are Private ISP's fault been working on some corporate networks lately and its been a horrible experience even when u talk directly to engineers when u get very technical most of them have trouble understanding and start pointing fingers to ogero or gds when using microwave etc..

If in any area the dsp provider is ogero i don't see the point going for private ISPs you are always guaranteed better performance from ogero directly if you are looking for ping stability i have been with then since more than 10 years and never even these days did i have issues while my people i know in same area using same ogero infrastructure with private ISPs have issues

i don't know much about thgv, but i know that they were trying to teach a 60 year old man that barely knows how to use whatsapp to configure his dsl modem vpi vci and wan pppoe i laughed so hard when i saw the chat, don't they have onsite support???

btw one ISP probably under same umbrella had 8 or 9 internal hops and that is over microwave transparent bridges what the hell are you doing routing the data between 8 routers/servers.

Edit: don't get me wrong i am not trying to defend ogero they have their fair share of problems, i dont blame private ISPs that much if they are always under their mercy its rough being a middle man

Last edited by DNA (August 6)

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#19 August 7

nuclearcat
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

If in any area the dsp provider is ogero i don't see the point going for private ISPs you are always guaranteed better performance from ogero directly if you are looking for ping stability i have been with then since more than 10 years and never even these days did i have issues while my people i know in same area using same ogero infrastructure with private ISPs have issues

Ogero have very limited manpower, so their support covering most basic cases only.
Also their demarcation point is box in building, means at best (you might have to wait weeks for that) they will come and check line before box, and if it is ok - you are on your own.
If your modem lost settings? They wont bother telling how to put vci/vpi, the only your choice is to come to their office and they will program modem for you. AFAIK they dont even give you your own login/password.
Some website fail to open due routing issues? Good luck troubleshooting that with Ogero as end-user.

About pointing to GDS/Ogero/microwave - true, even THGV 1st line engineers often do that, people is people, in Lebanon you need to have basic networking skills to reason with 1st line of support, at ANY isp. Ogero might tell it is international problem, out of their control or it is wires in your building, if 1st line dont want to bother with troubleshooting.

All ISP have onsite support, but it cost way more than account itself, literally nobody pay for it, even those who say they are ready to pay, when engineer arrive and fix their issue, they often refuse to pay (even was agreed otherwise), so most stopped offering it. If old man dont want to put vpi/vci, he can do easiest thing - bring his modem to ISP office.

8-9 internal hops is quite normal, especially in Lebanon due government monopoly limitations (government force to split each connection to ISP/DSP + they dont allow anybody except ogero to own fiber and etc).
When you hide all those hops behind MPLS, it will look nicer, but much worse to troubleshoot.
Also, this is for example comcast, US:

OUTER:
traceroute to 216.58.217.142 (216.58.217.142), 64 hops max, 72 byte packets
1  router.asus.com (192.168.1.1)  4.018 ms  0.718 ms  0.655 ms
2  * * c-68-81-70-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net (68.81.70.1)  4228.615 ms <————— UH YA, THAT’S NOT GOOD
3  68.85.194.209 (68.85.194.209)  19.755 ms  18.592 ms  10.102 ms
4  be-20-ar03.newcastle.de.panjde.comcast.net (69.139.192.153)  19.453 ms  33.912 ms  109.620 ms
5  be-33287-cr02.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net (68.86.94.249)  1736.663 ms  4787.462 ms  20.046 ms
6  he-0-10-0-0-pe04.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net (68.86.82.210)  16.548 ms  20.248 ms  19.318 ms
7  as36040-2-c.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net (75.149.229.86)  14.933 ms  24.071 ms  14.382 ms

Last edited by nuclearcat (August 7)

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#20 August 7

DNA
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

nuclearcat wrote:

Ogero have very limited manpower, so their support covering most basic cases only.
Also their demarcation point is box in building, means at best (you might have to wait weeks for that) they will come and check line before box, and if it is ok - you are on your own.
If your modem lost settings? They wont bother telling how to put vci/vpi, the only your choice is to come to their office and they will program modem for you. AFAIK they dont even give you your own login/password.
Some website fail to open due routing issues? Good luck troubleshooting that with Ogero as end-user.

That makes my point even more true cause if i am with a private ISP using Ogeros dsl infrastructure if any problem occurs you will have 2 parties to deal with it will take a week or 2 for the ISP to figure out its a line problem for example and then a month for ogero to come fix it so why not cut corners? that is 1 more reason to go with ogero if they are your dsp

All ISP have onsite support, but it cost way more than account itself, literally nobody pay for it, even those who say they are ready to pay, when engineer arrive and fix their issue, they often refuse to pay (even was agreed otherwise), so most stopped offering it. If old man dont want to put vpi/vci, he can do easiest thing - bring his modem to ISP office.

so what makes them better than ogero? again nothing, ogero has support teams and Centrale all over lebanon but this man is like 2 hour drive from the ISP if the problem was with ogero it would have been a 10minute trip to fix it, but he was without internet for weeks for simple stuff.
If it costs more than the account to fix an issue then why provide services all over lebanon if you can provide support in one area? simply because it generates way more money as you are using ogero's infrastructure and paying them a fee so u can have as many accounts as u like without bothering with infrastructure other than couple of routers and servers and share the bandwidth between users this explains the tens of "ISPs" in this very small market

8-9 internal hops is quite normal, especially in Lebanon due government monopoly limitations (government force to split each connection to ISP/DSP + they dont allow anybody except ogero to own fiber and etc).
When you hide all those hops behind MPLS, it will look nicer, but much worse to troubleshoot.
Also, this is for example comcast, US:

OUTER:
traceroute to 216.58.217.142 (216.58.217.142), 64 hops max, 72 byte packets
1  router.asus.com (192.168.1.1)  4.018 ms  0.718 ms  0.655 ms
2  * * c-68-81-70-1.hsd1.pa.comcast.net (68.81.70.1)  4228.615 ms <————— UH YA, THAT’S NOT GOOD
3  68.85.194.209 (68.85.194.209)  19.755 ms  18.592 ms  10.102 ms
4  be-20-ar03.newcastle.de.panjde.comcast.net (69.139.192.153)  19.453 ms  33.912 ms  109.620 ms
5  be-33287-cr02.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net (68.86.94.249)  1736.663 ms  4787.462 ms  20.046 ms
6  he-0-10-0-0-pe04.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net (68.86.82.210)  16.548 ms  20.248 ms  19.318 ms
7  as36040-2-c.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net (75.149.229.86)  14.933 ms  24.071 ms  14.382 ms

By internal i mean within the ISP not in lebanon all IPs were in the same subnet
i know it is normal in lebanon to have lops of internal hops due to the situation data goes around in a circle from ogero to isp or maybe another dsp then ogero then international lol
in US the hops are across several regions not within same building like the isp i am referring to

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#21 August 7

nuclearcat
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

DNA wrote:

That makes my point even more true cause if i am with a private ISP using Ogeros dsl infrastructure if any problem occurs you will have 2 parties to deal with it will take a week or 2 for the ISP to figure out its a line problem for example and then a month for ogero to come fix it so why not cut corners? that is 1 more reason to go with ogero if they are your dsp

I'm pointing that Ogero wont bother about your tricky backbone issues, like some app not working, or routing issue of website, if you are end-user.
Private ISP on high-class service type will do that and fast enough.


DNA wrote:

so what makes them better than ogero? again nothing, ogero has support teams and Centrale all over lebanon but this man is like 2 hour drive from the ISP if the problem was with ogero it would have been a 10minute trip to fix it, but he was without internet for weeks for simple stuff.
If it costs more than the account to fix an issue then why provide services all over lebanon if you can provide support in one area? simply because it generates way more money as you are using ogero's infrastructure and paying them a fee so u can have as many accounts as u like without bothering with infrastructure other than couple of routers and servers and share the bandwidth between users this explains the tens of "ISPs" in this very small market

Ogero have support teams that handle traditional telephone stuff, half-related to most common internet issues - broken wiring from box to centrale, sometimes they can try to solve bad noisy pairs(but that one as i see by feedback of their users - after quite lot of nagging). As soon as issue different - good luck.
You cannot bring your modem to ANY centrale. AFAIK you need to bring to Ogero central offices in Beirut.
Why provide services all over lebanon and not having local support offices? Just because average Lebanese citizen cannot afford paying for such level of service that ISP will have support office at walk distance. It means there is support or not, running offices all across country will end up in ARPU, your account cost.
And it is not just "few servers". Are you aware that Google, Facebook, Akamai, Netflix and many others running part of their offloading infrastructure at private ISPs? And private ISPs give priority on such traffic and sometimes even dont count it as FUP/quota? Also often ISP trying to run QoS, so your conferencing software will run, even if your area/connection is congested (depends on ISP and service type). On Ogero... i know many people switched to private companies, especially when remote education was only option, just because Ogero set too small upload on DSL or centrale is congested and they dont have any QoS set for users and they are unable to solve issue.

DNA wrote:

By internal i mean within the ISP not in lebanon all IPs were in the same subnet
i know it is normal in lebanon to have lops of internal hops due to the situation data goes around in a circle from ogero to isp or maybe another dsp then ogero then international lol
in US the hops are across several regions not within same building like the isp i am referring to

Thats just not correct understanding of ISP infrastructure.
US ISP might have infrastructure stretched all across the country, just because of country size.
ISP in Lebanon might have all hops in reserved subnets (10/8, 172.16/12, etc) cause they are not wasting real IPs, but that doesn't means it is one place, or stretched all across the country.
You cannot judge ISP infrastructure by traceroute unless you know exactly where each hop are and what it is doing.
Assuming anything just by numbers of hops or subnets - is not proper way at all.
I have some ISPs where DDoS protection scheme generate 1-2 hops with ips 10.x.x.x which are same as previous ones, but they are located abroad, in IX locations.

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#22 August 8

DNA
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

man u are mixing things up, u are talking about ogero as if most  of the users and ISPs arent using their dsl to begin with, if ogero's upload is small switching to any other isp results in worse performance because Ogero is your DSP and upload will stay the same, i never said dont go with private ISPs when they can provide u service using their own infrastructure, but from my experience ogero's internet is the most stable its actually great no issues whatsoever i see no point in switching to private when i am connected to Ogeros DSLAM unless i am going microwave 4G or something

btw microwave is great for coorporate users across the country i mean without it its almost impossible to get anything done with ogero in most regions. all corporate users i work with have private isps and i even recommend this route, their support is better GDS support is very good also.

but as home users they are worse than ogero they are using Ogero's infrastructure to reach the whole country and make a buck yet they don't provide support and can easily blame ogero thats how its going, u can't provide a service with no support, but they are getting away with it stop denying that fact man and no i do not have to pay u to come fix my internet, its part of your business

That reminded me of our "ishtirak" guy if his generator broke he used to include on the bill "فرق صيانة" lol
like running a business should be 100% profit no costs or anything.

regarding modem configuration no they offer the service not only in beirut and in some cases they will ship it or something at least in my area u can leave the modem and take it after a week or so.( i am not sure in the current situation though).

And it is not just "few servers". Are you aware that Google, Facebook, Akamai, Netflix and many others running part of their offloading infrastructure at private ISPs?

yes i am aware of that,but still their internet service is couple of routers and brases, u do not have a backbone in the country you are simply using someone else's, yea yea you can add 100 servers for caching offloading or whatever but that doesn't change the fact that u can run an ISP in lebanon with a couple bgp router for your ASN couple other routers and a bras or 2.

Thats just not correct understanding of ISP infrastructure.
US ISP might have infrastructure stretched all across the country, just because of country size.
ISP in Lebanon might have all hops in reserved subnets (10/8, 172.16/12, etc) cause they are not wasting real IPs, but that doesn't means it is one place, or stretched all across the country.
You cannot judge ISP infrastructure by traceroute unless you know exactly where each hop are and what it is doing.
Assuming anything just by numbers of hops or subnets - is not proper way at all.
I have some ISPs where DDoS protection scheme generate 1-2 hops with ips 10.x.x.x which are same as previous ones, but they are located abroad, in IX locations.

i will not pretend to know how they do their things but seeing example 172.16.45.3 --> 172.16.45.5--> 172.16.46.1 etc... and all with similar ping meaning close proximity, feels so weird and unnecessary, but what do i know.

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#23 August 8

nuclearcat
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

DNA wrote:

man u are mixing things up, u are talking about ogero as if most  of the users and ISPs arent using their dsl to begin with, if ogero's upload is small switching to any other isp results in worse performance because Ogero is your DSP and upload will stay the same, i never said dont go with private ISPs when they can provide u service using their own infrastructure, but from my experience ogero's internet is the most stable its actually great no issues whatsoever i see no point in switching to private when i am connected to Ogeros DSLAM unless i am going microwave 4G or something

Until recently Ogero was restricting their unlimited service plans by locking DSL modem speed. That means if you are subscribed to 4Mbit unlimited, you will get certain limits on download and upload. Private ISPs kept speed on physical channel unrestricted, but shaped "at their side" in L3 QoS.
Thats why upload speed on equal service plans on private companies was better. Not sure about now.


DNA wrote:

btw microwave is great for coorporate users across the country i mean without it its almost impossible to get anything done with ogero in most regions. all corporate users i work with have private isps and i even recommend this route, their support is better GDS support is very good also.

Microwave is mixed bag as well. Sometimes you are lucky, sometimes DSP have shitty hop where his batteries get discharged each night and you have no internet, or they have interference and you get constant packetloss.

DNA wrote:

but as home users they are worse than ogero they are using Ogero's infrastructure to reach the whole country and make a buck yet they don't provide support and can easily blame ogero thats how its going, u can't provide a service with no support, but they are getting away with it stop denying that fact man and no i do not have to pay u to come fix my internet, its part of your business

You definitely have no idea how telecom operators all over the world work.
Most of end-user ordinary services doesn't include on-site visits, unless it is physical media issues. It is cheaper to lose them, than handle problematic users. In most of cases they have to either upgrade to higher type of service, or leave.
You can complain to support about connectivity issues to some resources, protocol issues, etc, it will be collected and if it is statistically significant(multiple complaints) - it will reach techies.
But if you have some exotic problems specific to your setup only, best bet to hire independent engineer to fix that.

DNA wrote:

That reminded me of our "ishtirak" guy if his generator broke he used to include on the bill "فرق صيانة" lol
like running a business should be 100% profit no costs or anything.

Surprise surprise, since ishtirak prices are regulated and enforced by government, and they dont allow them to include depreciation costs, most likely they have right to include such thing on bill when generator is broken. You dont like - you don't pay, install your own solar and your generator and let's see how much more or less you will pay.
And yes, what is a point doing business that is not profitable? Is ishtirak guy mother Theresa or what?
Another thing they run their business unprofessionally and too high overhead and too high profit margin, and if someone know he can do better and cheaper, he do his own setup and disconnect ishtirak, instead of nagging and trying to force ishtirak to be less profitable. Thats how free market works.

i will not pretend to know how they do their things but seeing example 172.16.45.3 --> 172.16.45.5--> 172.16.46.1 etc... and all with similar ping meaning close proximity, feels so weird and unnecessary, but what do i know.

Thats not correct. Ogero use on their BGP P2P links with ISP 172.x IP's, some ISPs use such ranges on BRAS, some IX use such IP's between BGP peers too.

yes i am aware of that,but still their internet service is couple of routers and brases, u do not have a backbone in the country you are simply using someone else's, yea yea you can add 100 servers for caching offloading or whatever but that doesn't change the fact that u can run an ISP in lebanon with a couple bgp router for your ASN couple other routers and a bras or 2.

Sorry, but you talk complete nonsense here.
You know a couple of words and general information about how providers work, but you have no idea why, for example, having your own BGP is essential, what freedom it gives (prepends, communities, etc), how private ISPs can provide better latency to selected users than ordinary user of Ogero, or better quality, and etc.
Funny fact, there was a couple of ISP who thought they can run with "just ASN, bgp router and BRAS or 2" - they went out of business very fast and sold their equipment and license.

Last edited by nuclearcat (August 8)

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#24 August 8

DNA
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

sorry for not quoting
i don't agree with you that telecom doesnt include on site visits, well i lived in dubai and some time in europe and if i call and tell them i have no connection they will ask couple questions and do their diagnoses and the next day they will knock on my door free of charge if nothing on my side needs replacement.. thats my experience
i know some have extra support packages but i don't think anyone will keep you without internet if the problem is from their installed equipment.


i dont know how it feels logical to you that the generator owner who takes 10$ subscription can charge extra to fix his generator, the 10$ subscribtion is there for this exact reason maintanance staff and this kind of thing so to bag the 10$ and take extra thats BS in any case the guy got called out he no longer does it...imagine he has a 20 year old generator that breaks every month thats his problem not mine buy a better one dude. .we are not the ones running caritas!

It is like going to a bakery and u buy your bread for 1$ and the next day prices increase at a specific location rise to 2$ for that day due to a failure on a machine so they can have money to fix it.. come on mannn that does not make any sense any depreciation failures maintenance is paid from the profits and base price which should include a small margin for such things.
anyway if you think that kind of business model is good in a free market then i have nothing more to say thats your opinion man.


you say i talk complete non sense and i know a word or 2 about ISPs,
yet amazingly u confirm that such isps can exist i dont care if they run out of business or not i said the minimum requirements in lebanon since the heavy lifting is done by Ogero.
heck u can run an "ISP" off a 100$ mikrotik and become the infamous cable guy. so no i am not talking complete non sense as confirmed by yourself these type of ISPs exist and they have a fair cut of the market and they are still running strong in villages and rural areas.
checking lebanon ASNs have a lot of barely known ISPs are u comparing those to the big names? i was not implying in anyway that IDM for example is running of couple of routers lol


we are going back and forth in this and one thing is leading to another ,i respect your view on this matter but i know where are u coming from so to be expected, these type of conversations are better said irl not on a forum we spammed this thread enough already *sorry admins*
i appreciate your help around here man have a good day!

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#25 August 8

nuclearcat
Member

Re: Need an explanation on this connection issue

I dont think it is worth discussing, when you are trying to dictate how ISP, ishtirak and others should run their business, while you never tried to do that, in Lebanon.
Its matter of fact, that few of those who still run business do it like this and "take it or leave it", and not because they are greedy a-holes, but just because it is only remaining way to keep things afloat in their opinion.

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