BashLogic
jadberro wrote@ crazy : the only other option is getting more bandwidth from *OUTSIDE* which is more expensive :) teo studied that already for too long now we have this solution and i think its the best to relief the internet here ,we can go around circling other solutions and wait . but I'd rather start on something up to code . did you read the document or no ?
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dg36xxnd_4hg8htrnj read it first . lol i know when to tell you about the surprise , and Samer its not a matter of forum anymore, this forum , your forum is witnessing the birth of something noble :) in a matter of fact without lebgeeks we wouldn't have met and decided on a plan , so Thanks :)
Good Luck
crazy
I read the document. My eyes hurt. No format, bad english, bad explanation.
If you want to make non tech user read it, so it might convice them you already lost the battle. And for tech-user its not that much explained.
It's just ideas that are put on paper, with a simplistic explanation, and this is not a good way to start a project like this. My advice is, start by having two paper, one tech-related, one non-tech related; then you explain depending on who your reader is.
You need to convince politicians to pay, by convincing the techies whom the politicians will ask for expertise about the subject. Tell them how they will win money by improving the situation of the internet, explain why it is a priority nowadays and not a simple leasure.
Before continuing your work, you might want to structurize it, there is a lot of words with no real proof of anything (that is why I said in my previous post to try finding internet measurement in lebanon). By how much this upgrade of infrastructure will improve the internet in lebanon. I don't want to undermine anyone, but personal experience is not a scientific proof, we need numbers we need evidence.
Just so you know, I'm not againts any project that might improve this field, I'm just saying that you lack a lot of information in this document, and if I wasn't familiar with the field I wouldn't have understand anything.
I cannot contribute anything now to the project, maybe in the weeks to come. (exams etc.)
Crazy
J4D
thanks bash , crazy , that's true its not really well formed . im waiting till we meet and construct the final draft(s) . your idea about the non-tech and tech is great ! i guess we must follow on that . crazy don't feel shy spill it out , whatever you see is wrong tell us :) btw your with us ! and yes it lacks a lot it will be completed in the coming days weeks .
rolf
I agree, friendlier presentation needed.
J4D
rolf wrotenon-tech users need friendlier presentation, with emphasis on potential profits.
[/quote]
im thinking
pictures , to explain the problem as well as the solution and these will be on pamphlets passed out in the street , university , internet , malls etc..... with the big LIX logo present so that they can relate with the problem and LIX that is that whenever they experience slow internet they think about LIX :)
in case of a meeting im going to print out all the posts so we can further elaborate , don't worry every thing will be taken into account :)
crazy
@jad, will do when I have the time. I might ask the expertise of other people as well, don't promise anything though.
@rolf, the document bring some facts, but lacks proofs, numbers, evidence that support these facts. You cannot support a problem/solution without numbers. For instance what is the bandwidth used for internal (i.e. lebanese) purposes now, how can costs decrease with an increase in use etc.
battikh
there were already some diagrams explaining the problem in the original documents from teo. nothing fancy or detailed tough.
J4D
@battikh: i had seen them before but appear to have lost them they are good enough and we can add graphics to them or do something based on them , i would love to add them back to the document , when i copied it to docs i was in a rush and did not copy them . i would be thankful if you give me their location.
EDIT:very informative article on the principal of IXP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_exchange_point
nuclearcat
Guys, you, as Lebanese can try something.
What if we make all together "open letter" with all good ideas, with implementation details, and send it to ministry?
As soon as we get incoming number it SHOULD reach minister. Sure only Lebanese citizens should sign it.
I think me, TG cannot be there, but we can help to build this letter.
J4D
i appreciate your effort but those things don't work in Lebanon :) we need to go ourselves including you and teo and speak to the minister :) that's what i have been rambling about for the last month :D
edit : broadband Lebanon is doing the same thing and they are going nowhere , hence LIX was born
crazy
The only way something have a chance of working is doing it completely. Research, analysis, study of market, study several solution, cost/benefits etc.
The job of some people is actually doint that (we call them consultant), you want to do this, on our free time, it will take more work, it will be more difficult (specially to gather data), because you don't have the permission to do it. You have to convince several ISPs to give you some data (one ISP won't suffice).
You mean well Jad, but the methodology you are following isn't constructive. You cannot be techwise all the time, today technology comes with economics, with business, with money, it does not stand alone.
Nuclearcat has a point, but not as an open letter, maybe as an open proposal, maybe not so open after all. If we can get behind an NGO that would propose the work (maybe they can pitch in too if they want/can) to the telecom ministry, maybe things can work out.
J4D
crazy if its necessary we will set up an ngo ;) guys , im being tech only here i have explained LIX to countless non computer ppl don't worry we are well set just have faith , and help with what you can and give us advice .
thanks for the effort :)
guys think meeting , halt the discussion for a sec . any ideas ? how ? where ? when ?
BashLogic
jadberro wrotecrazy if its necessary we will set up an ngo ;) guys , im being tech only here i have explained LIX to countless non computer ppl don't worry we are well set just have faith , and help with what you can and give us advice .
thanks for the effort :)
guys think meeting , halt the discussion for a sec . any ideas ? how ? where ? when ?
you are overlapping and stepping on toes. It cant work this way.
J4D
what do you mean :)
Joe
It is way too early to go see the ministry. Why would they even see us? "Uh hi, we're a bunch of geeks who got together and decided you're doing things wrong. Here's what you should be doing instead?" crazy is absolutely right, research should be intensively done before going further. It is true that we're volunteers and are limited in time, but we're also geeks (understand resourceful people), and we're many. With proper organization we could get to the bottom of it.
Teo has already done a big part of research. It would be great to have him on board. But don't think that we could just take his document and put it under the nose of anyone in the ministry (let alone the minister himself).
We either can go behind an existing NGO (good idea, will save some work), or create our own. Do we have people motivated enough to do that? Think countless hours of work besides our daily lives.
The LIX thing haven't even thoroughly been reviewed. BashLogic and rolf both made interesting remarks we haven't discussed yet. GN90 and crazy both made really good points. The thing is discussing a plan on a forum might not be the most interactive idea. Meeting could be good but not easy to set up. I resuggest the IRC meeting idea. We could all set an appointment to a private channel, with some definite topics to be discussed.
Forum can still be great for brainstorming, so keep the ideas coming. To keep the posts effective maybe ask people to lay down on the "great ideas" and "I'll keep you posted", "it's a surprise" ... it'll litter what is supposed to be a general brainstorming topic.
Here are the most direct issues:
1- We need to know who are the members. Every person interested, at least in attending the IRC meeting, could you manifest your presence by writing on this topic.
2- Apart from your (nick)name, state the topics you would most likely discuss during the IRC meeting. I'll try to summarize them.
3- Tell all your friends/acquaintances who could be interested in the meeting to join the forum (lebgeeks).
The meeting will be held in a couple of weeks. For now give us your posts and general brainstorming ideas.
J4D
lol of course it is early we don't even have a plan yet ! that's why the meeting is needed i guess we have reached the limit here of discussing on the forum :(
battikh
that's coz no discussion was attempted. There is still a lot that can be discussed, which it should. Going to a meeting without having an agenda about what will be discussed is not very constructive.
plus some things can be known from now:
1- who can help in getting data from ISPs to see how much bandwidth can be saved?
2- what are the new services that will be possible if the project is done?
3- is there a business need for that? how much?
4- are ISPs ready to invest? which ones? how much? at what cost? present them the study about new services and how much it will bring them
... then, if it turns out that the project is justifiable from a tech point of view and from a business point of view...
5- who can work on the network high level design?
6- who can check about the feasibility? like if fiber can be pulled from beirut to tripoly in an affordable way
7- who can get quotes for the equipments?
8- how much will the total cost be? (equipment + labor + maintenance + ... )
9- how much will the gov have to charge for the lease of the fiber to make it interesting for them?
10- based on point 4, is it ok for the ISPs?
11- once everything seems feasible, as per the plan, affordable, ... who can work on the low level design?
12- make a nice booklet with nice pictures, make a nice presentation, and only then present it
and working with an already existent NGO is way better, specially if they are backed up by the EU or someone similar. If it can be justified that it can help in the development of the country, develop business, develop the economy, ... the EU could even finance parts of it if the right people are contacted and given the right plan.
J4D
battikh ! great post :) those points should definitely be taken into account in the meeting . roles will be fortunately passed out . as for the joining another NGO im against that because simply that would make us inferior and controlled and we are against that we can make them OUR partners ;)
nuclearcat
IMHO minister doesn't give a shit and will not let to come even 100m close to him.
Usually only one way to reach such high persons - open letter from large group of people.
battikh
jad, is your target to apply the thing or not to feel inferior?
NGOs that have a good relationship and contacts with the government, foreign countries, have funds, ... are way better than a new NGO that never achieved anything before and is made of a group of no-ones. a new NGO will not be taken seriously.
