jad594
Salutations geeks,
I was wondering if somebody can give me some insight about the event that occurred a couple of months back, whereby (in terms of how I understood it) an un-authorized citizen was providing internet service to people through an Israeli network or something like that? They found the device somewhere in Chouf if my memory serves me right.
My question is, how did the ministry claim that a consequence of this event caused a loss of around $200 million dollars in revenue?
Thank you very much,
Jad
haidcar
it all starts with Bandwidth.
The MoT through Ogero is the exclusive seller of bandwidth on all territories, basically a monopoly.
MoT buys International capacity through submarine cables that connect Lebanon with other countries like IMEWE cable, Then resells it in E1 2Mbps) packages to local ISPs, IDM, Terranet...
It all sounds good until you find out that Lebanon pays few just tiny amount for the international capacity, basically maintenance fees only, which equates at few dollars for every E1 of bandwidth. then Lebanon Sells back to ISPs for 300$ a E1. and to add insult to injury Ogero's head Youssif, was not accepting the reselling of E1 to local ISPs, which led to deteriorating in internet speeds across Lebanon during peak hours.
rolf
If a Lebanese can smuggle 200 million worth of bandwidth across the Israeli-Lebanese border, then truly the internet situation is very bad.
jad594
So was this $200M in revenue "stolen"(as in he was taking from the available bandwidth) ? Or was it an amount that could have been earned had this illegal scheme not be available?
rolf
jad594 wroteSo was this $200M in revenue "stolen"(as in he was taking from the available bandwidth) ? Or was it an amount that could have been earned had this illegal scheme not be available?
If someone sets up a link with Israel then I don't see how it reduces or "takes away" from the bandwidth that is otherwise available through the other "official" international links. In fact this new link would have increased the capacity of the country. They should be paid for that!
The Lebanese people are being robbed of their money and also being robbed of business and investment opportunities because of over-priced, state-controlled internet. If we're talking about thiefs, let's start from the beginning.
jsaade
rolf wrotejad594 wroteSo was this $200M in revenue "stolen"(as in he was taking from the available bandwidth) ? Or was it an amount that could have been earned had this illegal scheme not be available?
If someone sets up a link with Israel then I don't see how it reduces or "takes away" from the bandwidth that is otherwise available through the other "official" international links. In fact this new link would have increased the capacity of the country. They should be paid for that!
The Lebanese people are being robbed of their money and also being robbed of business and investment opportunities because of over-priced, state-controlled internet. If we're talking about thiefs, let's start from the beginning.
You are right, and it is basically because we do not do anything about it.
nuclearcat
Just as sidenote, by law in all this story i believe right is on side of Ogero. Word of law.
But sense of law, and common sense - none of sides right.
Government(ogero) buying bandwidth in europe let's say $10 and selling it to ISPs $100 (numbers are random, just to have idea). Most of this money goes to fund government activities. If there is no this money - there is no Lebanon, and will be complete chaos.
Private ISPs cannot get this bandwidth easily like in rest of world, they have to met conditions, sometimes IMHO very unfair. Also if private ISP will try to sell DSL same prices as Ogero but having backbone with such prices - they will go bankrupt, because Ogero competing on end-user market unfairly, they have backbone $10 and can sell end-users MUCH cheaper.
So private ISPs hooked outside directly and got price let's say $30. Instead of buying $100*bandwidth, they buy from illegal sources $30*bandwidth. Also this illegal links available almost instantly for upgrades, they are much more flexible.
About spying i believe it is hoax, until now no credible info about such events. But yes, some things was suspicious, i guess authorities might find out, if there was any issue.
Conclusion and my point:
Ogero should not compete on end-user market as it is done now, it wont be fair competition in any case, better they provide transport (backbone and DSL distribution) and government enforce state regulated prices and quality and let private market provide service. It will be fair competition at least. Anybody who doesn't provide decent quality should be fined in interest of government.
Right now private ISPs can throw noisy users to Ogero and provide shitty service for others, who are less picky, and always will have excuse (and they are right, because with noisy users they lost also most sweet corporates, who was "funding" better internet, it is complex economics of running ISP).
Also this way it will decrease burden on Ogero, because right now end-user support (i am talking about decent support) require a lot of state employees to be involved in low skilled work (answering phones, 1st line support). Ogero can concentrate more on country strategy in telecom and work on more hitech subjects, instead of handling stressful DSL users "wasta" requests.
NuclearVision
nuclearcat what you wrote makes perfect sense.
But then, if that's ogero's "tactic", i'm sorry to say, all the others who bought internet legally for100$ instead of 10$(using the same numbers you used), classify as dumb.
That's how it works in the lebanon.
edit: Could anyone verify the location of the spy device or whatever it is, the one that op mentioned being in chouf, i'd like out of curiosity to known where it is.
hussam
Put ethics and ideals aside for a moment. How much time does it take for Ogero DSL to be activated if one has no wasta?
Georges00
hussam wrotePut ethics and ideals aside for a moment. How much time does it take for Ogero DSL to be activated if one has no wasta?
I took me 1 week.
No wasta.
jad594
Thanks everyone for the great replies. The story makes much more sense now!
nuclearcat
NuclearVision wrotenuclearcat what you wrote makes perfect sense.
But then, if that's ogero's "tactic", i'm sorry to say, all the others who bought internet legally for100$ instead of 10$(using the same numbers you used), classify as dumb.
That's how it works in the lebanon.
Probably prison and huge fines will bring "smart ones" back to their senses.
Also scandal reason lays not in money even, problem is that some individuals who was doing this "schemes" started to brag, how the will smash some high position government officials. It does reached this officials and it is expectable they went nuts.
hussam
I can't wait till Ogero reduces prices and improves speed again. Private ISPs, most of which should not be in this business anyway, will again label it anti-competitive behavior.
nuclearcat
So you think private ISPs not dropping prices, just because they are following Ogero prices for end-users?
hussam
nuclearcat wroteSo you think private ISPs not dropping prices, just because they are following Ogero prices for end-users?
Considering the hassle of switching providers, they don't need to drop prices to follow Ogero. Ogero has always been the logical choice in the last 5 years and people still use private ISP services.
Hardly any who are not already planning on switching will switch just because of price drops.
Silentcontrol
i think the price will affect all isps
why i chose private isp : customer support ( not perect but way better than ogero )
the possibility of buying unlimited night traffic ( although ogero tried to ban it but isps found loop holes )
congestion on ogero centrals ( idm uses their own called GDS )
hussam
Of course it *will* affect all ISPs. The point I am trying to make is that their service will deteriorate because offering quality on par with Ogero cuts into their profit when they reduce their prices as well.
nuclearcat
hussam - sorry, but your sense of logic hit new lows. Are you turning from geek who dig in details in technical stuff to "perfect consumer" who is capable to read just few headlines at public media? I hope not.
ISPs cut prices, just because with new DSL prices announcement, behind the curtain Ogero usually cut backbone prices as well.
And what is not fair, that if quota for Ogero DSL for consumers increased 10x times, let's say, price for ISP for backbone reduced only 10%, so harm is not in cut of prices by itself, but unfair cut proportion between backbone/ogero end-user prices. In rest of world it is called monopoly unfair competition.
And as any person who is not brain damaged, and knows a bit thing called "market", wont vote for any kind of monopoly, be it government owned telecom, or private giants, like Verizon and etc.
Who keeps internet market in the world healthy is small guys and non-isp bigger players who can enter market freely, like google fiber, while by scale their implementation is tiny, in usa they irritated giants and local providers, and did great thing - others started to think how to bring fresh blood to stalled "broadband speed" numbers. Other example: Cogent, but not many knows this story, when tier-1 backbone guys (Level-3 and so) stalled on pricing and was enjoying superprofits, small guy Cogent entered market (but he has no restrictions like in Lebanon), he start to sell backbone ridiculously cheap, and "big" guys had to follow. Sure this price drop was not just their "will", to reach this numbers they dropped some quality, removed unnecessary SLA, used less redundancy, had worse support, but that what market needed, sometimes price matters more than quality.
The only reason market is very unhealthy in Lebanon - is backbone prices, ridiculous restrictions on access to local backbone (only government can lay fiber), and sure heavy politicization/wasta in all this business. As soon things will be more open, everything will change upside down. But that lebanese people business, i dont interfere in politics.
hussam
Honestly, Nuclearcat, you sound like a marketing person right now.
The only issue here is that those Lebanese ISPs withhold all that information you mentioned from their customers. None admit Ogero backbone prices are unfair. This is just unethical from the private ISP side.
A geek doesn't accept false advertising.
But *sigh*, whatever.
rolf
Since when do governments play fair?
But in the matter of the least worse option, Lebanon is bad from this aspect.
Also "taxing" through telecom and internet is dumb. It is taxing high tech businesses only. Good luck competing with other countries like that.
All what this seems to be about is keeping the money under control and keeping an appearance of order and competition.
Chaos, you say? I'm not so sure. Lebanon had a war in the 80ies and I think the progress since has mostly been superficial. Same warlords are now sitting in the government and making speeches like they have something to teach the rest of us. And they can't manage to pick up the garbage or elect a president. No I'm not sure that "tax on high tech businesses" is going to good use, and not sure anymore that it's OK to look the other way and let politicians enrich themselves so that they dont kill each other.
This is a good case for a minimalistic government that stays out of most things.
I am also for minimalistic programming. That is also very under-appreciated, with bad consequences as well.
And hussam, I don't see why ISP should get the blame when they are just reselling something and trying to stay in business. They offer low quality, but do they have a choice?
When I got my first internet connection in the 90ies, it was Inconet, then Sodetel. It was dial up and worked ok for the time. DNS was managed by AUB. Government did very little.
But now they see that there is money to be made, they get involved but how? The prices are set like in a communist country, but ISPs are allowed to compete. Basically trying to have their cake and eat it too.