nuclearcat wroteFirst of all NOT Ogero decide to lower prices and anything about prices. It is done by MoT/minister/parliament, you just failed on basic point "All those ISPs would have kept people at 56Kbit per second till today if it were not for the Ogero.". And i removed long rant i wrote, because it is pointless. I can disprove almost any phrase in your post.
Read background of phrase "Sutor, ne ultra crepidam" and term ultracrepidarianism, it is exactly about your post.
Ok, it was the ministry of telecommunications which lowered prices. But this still meant that Ogero's plans were better afterwards and private businesses were forced (unwillingly) to compete. Even you pointed out here a few years ago that this move by MoT/Ogero was hurting private providers which you predicted would not survive.
Even when illegal bandwidth was available and used by prominent providers (including folks like Sodetel), why did those private companies not provide higher speeds before they were pushed to do so? For the record, I don't believe I am pretending I know how to run a ISP company.
So yes, we would still be at ridiculously low speeds if it were not for MoT or Ogero or whoever.
ali_m3 wroteI am not discussing economics nor am I pointing out that an ISP is easy to run. And I am surely not discussing politics. All am I saying is putting a proper internet network in place is not the toughest thing to do. Had there been less corruption in our country, we would surely have much better internet in Lebanon (and other stuff as well). I even hear that fiber network is already in place. SO what is stopping it from being used? There are many countries other than Qatar, with a GDP that can be compared to Lebanon that have good and stable internet.

And yes why wouldn't people pay if they have reliable and trustworthy provider? In Qatar for instance, prices start from $80 (for 25Mbits) and go up to almost $500 (1Gbps). I'm sure that can be scaled to Lebanon and people will pay for whatever they need if they know they will have a good and proper service.
Fiber network is broad term. It can be single cable heading from south to north, and it can be cables to all major areas for FTTH. My guess, it is just fiber connectivity to major telephone exchange buildings. It will just improve DSL service.
About countries, i can give you example. My close friend is from Dominican republic, situation is somehow similar there (even they are in much better shape, and they can hook direct cable to US). Their GDP about 75% of Lebanese, but it is MUCH easier to lay fiber there and much easier to cover by radio technologies (3G/LTE). They have also US companies operating in country, 3 times more population. But also they are island (Lebanon in telecom terms island, can't hook to fiber over land), and they are plagued by electricity problems.
But no miracle, even with all this:
https://www.orange.com.do/web/internet/internet-en-tu-movil
500Mbyte/month - 5.44$US, while in Lebanon 10$.
3Mbit $67/mo (Wind Telecom) but in best traditions of US providers, it is unannounced FUP. They are even worse on this matters transparency than ISPs Lebanon.
hussam wrote Ok, it was the ministry of telecommunications which lowered prices. But this still meant that Ogero's plans were better afterwards and private businesses were forced (unwillingly) to compete. Even you pointed out here a few years ago that this move by MoT/Ogero was hurting private providers which you predicted would not survive.
I said for example when last time Boutros Harb increased quota 10x times, and he dropped price for ISPs in much smaller ratio (approx 75% from original price), is it fair you think?
Not that much forced, than it is just market automatically adapt and ISPs always mimic someone else prices.
And many of them in fact dead as i predicted. Not many people know that IDM acquired Cyberia and other big ISP(if not many), i am not talking that many small dudes went out of business. More poor, but well educated people may fall in trap of extremists, cause unbalanced pricing kicked them out of business, and they are unable earn now for living. Some tried to travel to Europe, but many returned.
hussam wrote Even when illegal bandwidth was available and used by prominent providers (including folks like Sodetel), why did those private companies not
provide higher speeds before they were pushed to do so? For the record, I don't believe I am pretending I know how to run a ISP company.
So yes, we would still be at ridiculously low speeds if it were not for MoT or Ogero or whoever.
There was rumors only, who used it. None of them will admit and i can't accuse them as well, i dont have any proof. But some dudes offered better prices/speeds in fact. And note what was said by officials on TV, all ISPs who was able to provide cheaper prices/higher speeds and exposed themselves - are severely punished by state now.
ali_m3 wrote And yes why wouldn't people pay if they have reliable and trustworthy provider? In Qatar for instance, prices start from $80 (for 25Mbits) and go up to almost $500 (1Gbps). I'm sure that can be scaled to Lebanon and people will pay for whatever they need if they know they will have a good and proper service.
If for majority Qatari it is not a big deal to pay $80 minimum and they can pay $500. LOL! Dream for Lebanese ISP.
While in Lebanon it is big deal even to raise price from $20 to $21, customers will rip you apart for this $1. I am not inventing it from my mind, one ISP with all this "scandals" decided to go fully legal, and he bought necessary services(it is monthly payments) from legal companies, but he needed to increase price $1 on each user just to cover losses. After that, guys in support need psychotherapist, as customers shouted to them, they feel now they left many families without water and bread, by taking last 1$ from them.
If purchasing power of Lebanese was same, i'm quite sure - you can see easily at least unlimited full DSL speeds and FTT* to some major areas.
nuclearcat wroteIf purchasing power of Lebanese was same, i'm quite sure - you can see easily at least unlimited full DSL speeds and FTT* to some major areas.
What you don't understand is that it is too late for something of that caliber. Lebanese people already developed a sense of distrust.
Let us assume that I offer to pay 150 dollars a month today to a legal provider. How can I guarantee that quality will improve? There is no customer protection or anything that forces ethics.
How many providers are willing to commit to a legally binding "minimal service availability" contract with a customer if that customer was willing to pay 150 dollars a month?

Actually let us not just rant on. Maybe we could get official statements from several ISPs that they are willing to sign such contracts with customers.
Incompetence in every sector, "masheena" attitude.
Even the people do it to each other, not just businesses to people.
Accept it the way it is, we are several layers away from the frontline battles of the West vs. their ISPs.
nuclearcat wrote
hussam wrote Ok, it was the ministry of telecommunications which lowered prices. But this still meant that Ogero's plans were better afterwards and private businesses were forced (unwillingly) to compete. Even you pointed out here a few years ago that this move by MoT/Ogero was hurting private providers which you predicted would not survive.
I said for example when last time Boutros Harb increased quota 10x times, and he dropped price for ISPs in much smaller ratio (approx 75% from original price), is it fair you think?
Not that much forced, than it is just market automatically adapt and ISPs always mimic someone else prices.
And many of them in fact dead as i predicted. Not many people know that IDM acquired Cyberia and other big ISP(if not many), i am not talking that many small dudes went out of business. More poor, but well educated people may fall in trap of extremists, cause unbalanced pricing kicked them out of business, and they are unable earn now for living. Some tried to travel to Europe, but many returned.
hussam wrote Even when illegal bandwidth was available and used by prominent providers (including folks like Sodetel), why did those private companies not
provide higher speeds before they were pushed to do so? For the record, I don't believe I am pretending I know how to run a ISP company.
So yes, we would still be at ridiculously low speeds if it were not for MoT or Ogero or whoever.
There was rumors only, who used it. None of them will admit and i can't accuse them as well, i dont have any proof. But some dudes offered better prices/speeds in fact. And note what was said by officials on TV, all ISPs who was able to provide cheaper prices/higher speeds and exposed themselves - are severely punished by state now.
So basically if the reports that there are over a hundred licensed ISPs (!) is true then who did IDM buy? or you can't discuss here?
hussam wrote Actually let us not just rant on. Maybe we could get official statements from several ISPs that they are willing to sign such contracts with customers.
How they can say they are ready to sign, if they have zero guarantees from upstream provider or government? :)
Also, maybe ISP will accumulate funds, and next day government will see that, and say, yow dude, u are illegal now, pay fines or close. And all will be gone.
It is very common in the world, governments when they are in need of money, they all of sudden find some violations and ask Google, Apple, and other fat ducks to pay millions/billions. In Lebanon it may happen as well.
Sure such points it can be written as "force-majeur", and then, yes, i am sure most of ISPs will sign such agreement. But even you pay $150, i highly doubt remaining customers will do same. And to accomplish this plan it is necessary to have majority signed in this.
kareem_nasser wrote So basically if the reports that there are over a hundred licensed ISPs (!) is true then who did IDM buy? or you can't discuss here?
There is official merges (between companies who have shareholders), and unofficial ones.
Official as example - http://www.businessnews.com.lb/cms/Story/StoryDetails.aspx?ItemID=1435 , but it was a while ago. I had info about new, more recent ones, but i was not curious to ask details.
I know personally some people who left business, and their networks was taken. Many of them left country with significant debts.
I remembered now, also, this year also Ogero closed for example at least one significant ISP due non-payments (their name comnet i guess, not sure). They was struggling to sell their business for 1-2 years before.
There is few other ISPs trying to sell themself, but they are not realistic, they think if they invested millions during years(but not wisely), they can get this days anything same or with +, while only assets they have - bunch of mikrotiks, few batteries and crap cabling "spiderweb".
what happened to that Botrous Harb announcement about new dsl plans coming soon? any news on that front?
He is serious on that, but only if council of ministers will approve.
Such decisions will face hard times now, because profit of Ogero falling, and decrease of price might be considered as negative to earnings.
nuclearcat wroteHow they can say they are ready to sign, if they have zero guarantees from upstream provider or government? :)
But the mainstream customer (not the minority which computer literacy) does not know of upstream provider or government practices. He/She assumes that if you are in business, you have a sustainable plan. Hence, when something bad happens, the business loses customer trust.
hussam wrote
nuclearcat wroteHow they can say they are ready to sign, if they have zero guarantees from upstream provider or government? :)
But the mainstream customer (not the minority which computer literacy) does not know of upstream provider or government practices. He/She assumes that if you are in business, you have a sustainable plan. Hence, when something bad happens, the business loses customer trust.
Then service will be as it is. How much customer are willing to pay and investment climate suggesting to invest in business.
Right now situation is that it is not possible to attract new investments in ISP sector, and plus there is no positive forecast on telecom in the world in general, and Lebanon are in much worse situation, due geopolitical reasons and recent events on the market.
If some other reason will appear in market (such as some new decision of government, and something else than just price drop) - then internet will improve. As everybody know, even recent speed increase and price drops leaded to situation, that they cannot get DSL upgrade, because their line/centrale "doesn't support".


@nuclearcat: May you please explain the downstream circled?
This depends on DSLAM settings. If you have DSLAM from ISP, your physical line might get this speed, but internet rate might be slower, because it can be shaped on different appliance (BRAS or some DPI).
nuclearcat wroteHow much customer are willing to pay and investment climate suggesting to invest in business.
This is precisely what I have been trying to get to. The customer doesn't trust he/she will get what they are paying for regardless of the amount.
Also when was it the customer's job to provide ISPs with a climate that suits their industry?
Even though the culprit is the situation in the telecommunications sector, the lack of transparency is what lead to disgruntled customers.
When you call your ISP and they make up dumb excuses that a 6 year old is unlikely to believe, they lose your trust. Look through the forums. It is all "turn your modem off and back on" and other dumb excuses such as "your phone line cannot handle more than 1Mbit". Then the same customer switches to Ogero and gets the full 2MBits/second.
And the reason is clear enough. ISPs deny they cannot afford to serve so many customers at current prices. If an ISP suddenly become honest and admit it, the customers will go elsewhere. A bad loop where the only exit is switching to Ogero.
How many ISPs have the balls to admit they have to oversell in order to afford bandwidth? The private industry is built on manipulation.
hussam wrote
nuclearcat wroteHow much customer are willing to pay and investment climate suggesting to invest in business.
This is precisely what I have been trying to get to. The customer doesn't trust he/she will get what they are paying for regardless of the amount.
Also when was it the customer's job to provide ISPs with a climate that suits their industry?
Funny, but it is exactly about customer decisions, but not very directly. Customer elects government, and government make decisions that drive market. What government customer elects/support - that service he will get. It is not only about ISP. But not only that.
Also when customer really picks best ISP and know how to evaluate them - service will improve in overall. In Russia, a while ago, when i was at beginning of their growth, customers communities were very picky, but reasonable. They made websites with local ISPs reviews, statistics, comparison, forums to discuss problem, so there was a strong reasonable community. There was a lot of ISPs who was selling bad service, some of them was gangsters, and i remember one of leaders was even kidnapped by gang, but because it became public and guy was keeping all their insults, all wrote about this incident in public, and then we came under their office as crowd, but peaceful one, so they backed and silently released him with sorry. And i can't say russian users more literate in IT than Lebanese, in opposite, there is some people more unreasonable, but "internet community forums" was filtering inadequate members. Major points they was interested in technical reviews, attempts to analyse sector. In Lebanon i remember some guys did DSL monitoring(it was called Ahsan DSL), to see quality. Only few fellow geeks was looking to them, masses didn't give a shit at all. Project died.
So, in Russia this feedback helped a lot for all, Russia has cheapest internet in the world. I can get 100Mbit for <$10(but there is big diversity in prices for business and personal use, and "sharing internet with neighbours" has very heavy punishment. Funny and sad, i heard story from my friend in Beirut, how one lebanese guy got serious issues with law, when he did that in Russia(he shared internet connection and did grave mistake, started to make his "cable isp" without proper paperwork and taking money from users of his shared connection), he was evicted from country for that.
I can ask there for 5ms lower latency, while in middle east any ISP will laugh at me for this. And ISPs there able to make profit, you know why? Because all cabling infrastructure accessible, ISP allowed to put fiber over the street, and it wont be called "illegal" when it is favorable for politics, and noone will cut ISP cables, because they are protected by law, and all relations of ISP and building owners, upstream providers, government monopolies are well defined and written in law.
And what we get in Lebanon? Well, you see by yourself. Almost none of internet users are even interested about feedback and extra services, majority just prefer just $1 cheaper internet. I really hope this will change.
hussam wrote Even though the culprit is the situation in the telecommunications sector, the lack of transparency is what lead to disgruntled customers.
When you call your ISP and they make up dumb excuses that a 6 year old is unlikely to believe, they lose your trust. Look through the forums. It is all "turn your modem off and back on" and other dumb excuses such as "your phone line cannot handle more than 1Mbit". Then the same customer switches to Ogero and gets the full 2MBits/second.
And the reason is clear enough. ISPs deny they cannot afford to serve so many customers at current prices. If an ISP suddenly become honest and admit it, the customers will go elsewhere. A bad loop where the only exit is switching to Ogero.
How many ISPs have the balls to admit they have to oversell in order to afford bandwidth? The private industry is built on manipulation.
There is no transparency in telecom, most of their skeletons are hidden under the carpet, anywhere in the world. If in Lebanon they are sometimes explaining FUP, in US for example, they keep it secret, until it hits public and there is public whining starts. Then they show some small letters in contract. In big cities everything are perfect, but in small cities you might see same problems Lebanon is facing, with some adjustments, like existence of some proper laws regulating sector.
"turn your modem off and back on" - is actually most universal solution, because DSL modems imported in Lebanon are rare crap, and for usual customer they often degrade over time(uptime), (NAT conntrack full, memory leaks in wireless driver code), so "reboot modem" often helps. But sure you see it from your standpoint, and you think ISP is very silly, while you don't see majority of calls, whom this "silly reboot" helped. About 1Mbit/2Mbit - ISPs access to telephone exchange limited, and most of that problems might be not due ISP fault. But sure if customer fallacy prefer to whiten some parties and blame other, they see what they want to see, whatever ISP will say.
Again, before blaming anybody, try to THINK and use your intelligence, to understand WHY in industry(not only in Lebanon) supports ask to "reboot" so often. Or why this "Your line can't support" are said so often in Lebanon by different ISPs.
But if average Joe just "don't believe", but dont want to "move gyrus in his brain" to find real culprit, he will keep eating shit. ISP can't have balls, businesses are not in position to fight with government, the only who have such rights and power - regular citizens. I know how some businesses tried and failed, because it is easy to close business, but what can be done to citizens in masses? But i cannot disclose such sad events details.

Now i am assisting one more ISP who wants to make best support ever, want to employ talented people in the area, doesn't make "wasta" for all his relatives and hiring by knowledge, i'm keeping silence and happy to see he believe in that, but i'm seeing how everybody around(competitors) laughing on him and says, i just make my crappy internet tiny bit cheaper, and users will ditch you, whatever service quality you will keep. And my experience says it is true, but still i have some hope people in his area will value his efforts. Period.