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#1 November 19 2010

Kassem
Member

How Much Should I Charge?

Hey everyone,

Ok so I haven't been for long enough in the freelance web development market in order to know what price is actually right for the services I do (or will) provide. But from my humble experience so far, I decided on a set of prices that I thought are reasonable. But some people said I'm over-charging, others said I'm actually under-charging. So I thought I'd ask you guys (the more experienced developers) about how you usually charge for web development services.

How much would you charge (on average) for:

1. A static HTML/CSS 5-10 page website. (no JS involved)
2. A static HTML/CSS 5-10 page website with some JS involved (animations, client validation, AJAX...etc).
3. A website that is fully generated by PHP, with a custom built CMS (rich text editor, image upload/resizer... etc).
4. Editing and customizing a template provided by the client. (could involve editing colors, some images and some XML files).
5. Assuming you have to design and develop the website: Do you charge for the mock-up (in Photoshop/Fireworks) or is that part of the whole package?

That's what I could think of at the moment... I'll add any scenarios/questions when they come to mind :)

But if there's any other method you follow in order to determine how much you should charge for a certain project please share with us.

Last edited by Kassem (November 19 2010)

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#2 November 19 2010

cnicolaou
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

Hi Kassem,

I'd say it really depends on the tasks required and the client.

If i were you, i'd follow the path of charging per hour of work.

Of course you need to break down the work to tasks and explain what is going to happen and when it is going to be delivered. That creates an essential trust relationship with your client.

As for charging per hour, it depends what skills you are going to use. HTML/CSS and web design in general tend to be cheaper than programming simply because there are many supplied resources and people with knowledge about these skills

Programming or developing code comes next (including JS). This is where to gets tricky since really good developers can complete a task in shorter time but ask for higher rates.

Hence the charging per hour basis.

Costa

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#3 November 19 2010

Kassem
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

Hi cnicolaou,

That's true, it depends on the tasks required and the client. I usually send the client a proposal detailing the tasks that need to be done and proposed features with their corresponding prices. The client is then free to choose what features to be included and the price is determined accordingly.

But I'm not really sure I'm pricing the tasks/features right. I try to estimate how easy or how hard it is going to be to implement a certain task/feature and price it accordingly. I do not charge by hour because I cannot really estimate how much time each task might take, I am still relatively slow when working with HTML and CSS. But how much would an experienced (say 4-6 years) developer charge per hour?

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#4 November 19 2010

arithma
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

Maximize your profit.
That usually means:
- Minimum is the least you're making already with other ongoing projects, or whatever you'd expect to be making
- Of course you can not price lower than what it costs you in time (expected time times the least charge per hour you want to work for. This is usually subjective and a career changer for starter uppers)
- Maximum is the most your client is ready to pay. (It's usually the perceived value of the product you're making and how much it's useful to them. Sometimes it feeds back (higher means better to them)).
- Consider your competition. If you're going to deliver something that does not blow off your competition (or can't show upfront for it using your portfolio) you should price slightly below the market price. This is something extremely lucid and depends on the contacts of your client, their whereabouts, how knowledgeable they are. Lowering your price here may mean that you're decreasing the risk of losing the project.

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#5 November 19 2010

MrClass
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

Well a website is divided into: Design and Development. Design costs will vary according to how many hours was spent to finally compose a satisfying interface. Usually clients waste my time by changing the site design over and over again. So, price cannot be determined except by number of hours. Regarding development, I charge according to functionalities requested. Stuff like Login and Authentication, Shopping cart, Comment and Review System, Blogs, Email Contact Forms, Search Boxes, Site Maps, RSS feeds, Calendars (plus add, remove, edit events), Interactive Maps (mainly google maps), Weather forecasts, and Custom forms are some of the requested functionalities by the client, and each has its own cost for time and money.

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#6 November 19 2010

Joe
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

Don't charge too much, keep your prices low. Your goal should no be to make money now, but to get maximum experience. You'll worry about money when you will really need it (wait till you finish uni).

Do not forget that thanks to Wordpress, developers charge peanuts and deliver really fast full blown websites. You want work? Show competitive prices. Once you'll have a full portfolio, and some famous clients, and only then, you can really start charging high rates. For now, and I don't mean it badly, in the client's eyes, you're just another kid who knows a little about computers.

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#7 November 20 2010

MrClass
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

rahmu lol thats not quite true come on: "just another kid who knows a little about computers" ?

During your first presentation with the client, the client can feel if you are experienced in what you're working with. Now that becomes up to you if you're able to give a professional presentation to the client. I like to keep things straight, serious, and direct to the point. Don't joke with the client. Take things easy, you need to grasp every idea that the client has in mind. Help out the client with choosing the functionalities. Be kind with the client but don't be his best friend. A professional behavior with the client will surely bring out bigger bucks. MOST IMPORTANTLY, once you made up your mind on a price, do not hesitate about it and lower it (clients dont trust people who give several prices)

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#8 December 8 2010

jsaade
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

Do not charge the price of peanuts. Be reasonable but also comfortable. If you want to work on a site for a long period you should be paid enough.

I have recently came across a client who says I am charging too much for freelance projects.
I know market prices for development (Especially in large companies), they would have a formula such as:
Project Time * (Employees involved salaries) * Software Licenses * Utilities * Management * Profit.
Most of the time a freelance project is 1/10 the price of the same project developed by a company.
I am not talking about peanut companies who hire fresh grads with low salaries to maximize their profit. I am talking about large companies with experienced developers who need quality salaries to deliver a good final product.

In my freelance formula I have:
Nbr of Hours * Technical Price.
Technical price depends on the project at hand which can be:
- native mobile app
- web mobile app
- facebook app
- Flash Video Game.
- Desktop (PC/Mac) Video Game
- Desktop App.
- Flash App.
- full flash website (+SEO/deeplinking)
- same as above + custom CMS
- full HTML website + Custom CMS
- Advanced HTML site (Jquery + Animations) + Custom CMS
- site built on CMSes such as Drupal/Wordpress/...
- Static HTML website.


So this client wanted a huge website where they have several pages per user and each user has his own admin panel to modify... and the whole site including its CMS was to be in flash.
The full site has to be done in 3months, and I gave a price for full design + dev.

In a weird turn of events, the client informed me that a company (very known in Lebanon) gave half the price I gave as freelance.
The site is huge and would take 3months full time! How can a company charge sites so low?

In addition, do we (as Software Developers) belong or have any kind of na2ebeh? and why not? we are a lot in Lebanon and most of us are very experienced in what we do!

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#9 December 9 2010

Kassem
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

ZeRaW wrote:

In addition, do we (as Software Developers) belong or have any kind of na2ebeh? and why not? we are a lot in Lebanon and most of us are very experienced in what we do!

I was thinking the same thing a few days ago!! Seriously, we are being taken very lightly by clients. It's like they do not appreciate what we do. It really pisses me off when they expect you to work for a whole month on their website to pay you no more than $400. Since when did we start getting paid the minimum wage?!

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#10 December 9 2010

nuclearcat
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

There is one issue with IT. Doctors, order of engineers, and etc, difficult to replace locally.
But IT... especially designers, have competition. Network is global, and indians, chinese designers (some of them bad, some is good) - is very easily reachable.
Most of lebanese designers doesn't offer decent services, or they are too overpriced.
Keep that in mind... order must not keep primary idea as overpricing services, but improving quality of services provided to customers.

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#11 December 9 2010

jsaade
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

nuclearcat wrote:

There is one issue with IT. Doctors, order of engineers, and etc, difficult to replace locally.
But IT... especially designers, have competition. Network is global, and indians, chinese designers (some of them bad, some is good) - is very easily reachable.
Most of lebanese designers doesn't offer decent services, or they are too overpriced.
Keep that in mind... order must not keep primary idea as overpricing services, but improving quality of services provided to customers.

That is why there should be some kind of na2ebeh.
IE, a junior software developer salary in the US can be found online. He does the exact same thing as a junior software developer in Lebanon. but in Lebanon some hire junior soft. dev. @ 400$ some at 800$ and some and 1200$. There is not any rule for the wages.

@nuclearcat, why are you confusing designers with IT and developers. They are all separate fields in a way or another and for each and everyone there is a role.
These roles are very much confused in Lebanon:
Programmer, Software Developer, Software Engineer, ...

Anything can be outsourced, if what you are saying is true, all the hospitals should hire chinese/indian doctors and fly them over, etc. it would be cheaper for the Hospital. What we are talking about is some kind of legislation.

When you visit a dentist, you expect to pay something around 50$ or 50 000LL. and you know the price depending on what you want to do with your teeth.

When you want to develop  program or a website, we do not have any agreement on the prices and each developer or company gives a different price, even lower than expected, ruining the whole market.


As an example, can anyone tell me what is the average salary per year of a Lebanese Junior Software Developer? and how about a Senior one?

Last edited by ZeRaW (December 9 2010)

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#12 December 9 2010

nuclearcat
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

I cannot hire dentist over internet (and he will do job remotely), but i can hire "Programmer, Software Developer, Software Engineer, ...". And important point - they can do job remotely.

Last edited by nuclearcat (December 9 2010)

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#13 December 9 2010

jsaade
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

nuclearcat wrote:

I cannot hire dentist over internet (and he will do job remotely), but i can hire "Programmer, Software Developer, Software Engineer, ...". And important point - they can do job remotely.

I understood your point, but IF that was the case, then every company in the world will outsource all its work.
Yet I believe there are rules. Microsoft has a city (Redmond) full of developers in the US, why wouldnt it outsource all its work, I am sure it would cost less than 1/10th of its price.

Developed countries have rules for outsourcing, you cannot just hire a "programmer" remotely, there laws, taxes, ...

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#14 December 9 2010

nuclearcat
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

In fact they do a lot outsourcing. But they are software giants.

Additionally there is only few software development companies and few integrators (who almost don't develop anything by themself) in Leb, country is small, and environment is hostile for software development (internet quality, restrictions on communications, improper laws and etc).
So all IT workers can expect - small jobs in almost non-IT companies, or going outside country. And this companies need a little help in IT, which they can easily outsource... You can close illegal farmacy or illegal dental clinic, but what  you can do with company who buy website outside? Or they buy proper software outside, than buying some crap done by one more local "Microsoft Certified" developer, who like to play with "latest" technologies and talk about them,  but don't know how to do his job properly.

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#15 December 10 2010

jsaade
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

nuclearcat wrote:

In fact they do a lot outsourcing. But they are software giants.

Additionally there is only few software development companies and few integrators (who almost don't develop anything by themself) in Leb, country is small, and environment is hostile for software development (internet quality, restrictions on communications, improper laws and etc).
So all IT workers can expect - small jobs in almost non-IT companies, or going outside country. And this companies need a little help in IT, which they can easily outsource... You can close illegal farmacy or illegal dental clinic, but what  you can do with company who buy website outside? Or they buy proper software outside, than buying some crap done by one more local "Microsoft Certified" developer, who like to play with "latest" technologies and talk about them,  but don't know how to do his job properly.

Exactly!
Why should software Development be huge in Lebanon?
Well contrary to other trades, all it needs is skill + people. Hardware/Software is not that expensive.
Instead of focusing on trading and jobs that need huge capitals, there should be more investment in minds.

In any case, I was just speaking out of anger :) I know I wont change anything, no-one will.

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#16 December 10 2010

nuclearcat
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

I will tell also sad truth. Big companies investing money, to block startups and individuals from competing with them, except in trivial proggies. Sadly i didn't save those articles, but for example patent system is effectively killing small business, because in case they grown enough to cut profit from big company, big company can kill them instantly with their patent portfolio.
Why i tell that?
IMO any "order of IT workers" will become probably one more corrupted organization, and will make life of IT workers difficult. What if big companies will come, bribe heads of order, they will keep side of companies?

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#17 December 10 2010

Joe
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

The topic of "outsourcing" your work, especially in IT is very relevant. Whether you like it or not, programmers today are in competition with a global market of programmers. China understood that a long time ago. So did India. Lebanon, believe it or not, is even considered as an "emerging market" and gets a lot of attention from foreign investors. Unfortunately not in the IT field.

The key solution here is "specializing". We cannot compete on global IT industry. How can you win against hords of Indians who are super cheap and extremely qualified. Yes you heard me, Indians and Chinese often provide better services than American or European ones. To counter this, look at the excellent example of what Ireland did. They specialized themselves in software testing. As a result the economy there was booming (well until the 2008 recession but that's another story). Every major software corporation in Europe has a testing center in Ireland today. Even American ones.

How to apply this specialization (or "glocalization" as I like to call it) is a very long story and will be discussed in another subject. But as far as pricing goes, you should all remember this:

IT is a very competitive market. (un)Fortunately, there are millions of programmers today capable of doing what you do and give a lower price. That does not necessarily means you should price lower too, but that you should hone your skills accordingly. As a Lebanese, you know Lebanese customers better, are able to speak their language, know their culture, ... Coming up with tailor-made solutions to fit your client's needs is key more than ever here. Examples are plenty but are outside the scope of this answer.

Simply remember, this is not the 90s or early 2000s anymore. You're competing on a high scale. The way we do business must evolve.

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#18 December 13 2010

Zusynoid-x
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

yea nuclear cat... microsoft outsources ... alot actually i think they outsource their drycleaning, their hairdressers, their janitors ... wow they do a lot of outsourcing...

seriously dude, you know nothing of what you say,

and anyone asking about what junior software developer makes /year here in leb its between 12,000 and 20,000 according to what i know
at least i know i am in that range

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#19 December 13 2010

nuclearcat
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

RLY dude? You are an expert in this field?
Probably you have to read then:
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/ … nt_Infosys

and:
2. Is anyone talking about the dollar value of the three year deal? How many Microsoft folks is Infosys providing IT services for at Microsoft?

We cannot mention dollar value of deal nor the number of folks working on the deal. Kindly note this is a global agreement covering all facilities and partner ecosystem of MSFT.

Update (April 15): One high-ranking Infosys exec has been quoted as saying the deal is worth more than $100 million.

3. Is MS still doing any part of its own IT services? If so, what?

Yes, MS has retained strategic functions in IT.

"According to what i know"... a bit funny. Lebanon didn't count their citizens

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#20 December 13 2010

jsaade
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

rahmu wrote:

The topic of "outsourcing" your work, especially in IT is very relevant. Whether you like it or not, programmers today are in competition with a global market of programmers. China understood that a long time ago. So did India. Lebanon, believe it or not, is even considered as an "emerging market" and gets a lot of attention from foreign investors. Unfortunately not in the IT field.

The key solution here is "specializing". We cannot compete on global IT industry. How can you win against hords of Indians who are super cheap and extremely qualified. Yes you heard me, Indians and Chinese often provide better services than American or European ones. To counter this, look at the excellent example of what Ireland did. They specialized themselves in software testing. As a result the economy there was booming (well until the 2008 recession but that's another story). Every major software corporation in Europe has a testing center in Ireland today. Even American ones.

How to apply this specialization (or "glocalization" as I like to call it) is a very long story and will be discussed in another subject. But as far as pricing goes, you should all remember this:

IT is a very competitive market. (un)Fortunately, there are millions of programmers today capable of doing what you do and give a lower price. That does not necessarily means you should price lower too, but that you should hone your skills accordingly. As a Lebanese, you know Lebanese customers better, are able to speak their language, know their culture, ... Coming up with tailor-made solutions to fit your client's needs is key more than ever here. Examples are plenty but are outside the scope of this answer.

Simply remember, this is not the 90s or early 2000s anymore. You're competing on a high scale. The way we do business must evolve.

How would you proceed with specialization if you do not actually have a real legislation of software developers?
we do not belong to any na2ebeh, and we do not have elected people or heads nor any guide/standard.
(in Lebanon at least).

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#21 December 13 2010

Zusynoid-x
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

nuclearcat wrote:

"According to what i know"... a bit funny. Lebanon didn't count their citizens

i believe you misunderstood ... so i'll just let you be =)

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#22 December 13 2010

rolf
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

Nobody answered???
OK, here are my prices (in the past) - ASSUMING someone else already took care of the graphic design (page, logo, etc.. design, maquette). Between brackets [] is the price that I recommend you would charge, because my prices were not always a good idea.

Kassem wrote:

How much would you charge (on average) for:

1. A static HTML/CSS 5-10 page website. (no JS involved)
I charged $400 but it had some PHP and JS included. If it was as you said no PHP no JS I'd probably charge $300 or less. Maybe $200. [$400]

2. A static HTML/CSS 5-10 page website with some JS involved (animations, client validation, AJAX...etc).
Did this for $400, including a minimal PHP backend.
[$500]

3. A website that is fully generated by PHP, with a custom built CMS (rich text editor, image upload/resizer... etc).
That would normally be around $800.
[$1000]

4. Editing and customizing a template provided by the client. (could involve editing colors, some images and some XML files).
No idea.

5. Assuming you have to design and develop the website: Do you charge for the mock-up (in Photoshop/Fireworks) or is that part of the whole package?

As I said, these prices are excluded as this work is usually given to a designer. If I do it myself I'd charge minimal price (like $100-200).

Last edited by rolf (December 13 2010)

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#23 December 13 2010

rolf
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

nuclearcat wrote:

In fact they do a lot outsourcing. But they are software giants.

Additionally there is only few software development companies and few integrators (who almost don't develop anything by themself) in Leb, country is small, and environment is hostile for software development (internet quality, restrictions on communications, improper laws and etc).
So all IT workers can expect - small jobs in almost non-IT companies, or going outside country. And this companies need a little help in IT, which they can easily outsource... You can close illegal farmacy or illegal dental clinic, but what  you can do with company who buy website outside? Or they buy proper software outside, than buying some crap done by one more local "Microsoft Certified" developer, who like to play with "latest" technologies and talk about them,  but don't know how to do his job properly.

Well cheap cars have always existed. They even make cars in china now (search youtube for "chinese car crash test":) ). People still buy expensive cars.

Personally I meet most of my customers through acquaintances and meet them face to face. If they want they can get an Indian developer on the net, but they will not know who he is, and will not meet him face to face.

Last edited by rolf (December 13 2010)

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#24 December 13 2010

Kassem
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

rolf wrote:

Nobody answered???
OK, here are my prices (in the past) - ASSUMING someone else already took care of the graphic design (page, logo, etc.. design, maquette). Between brackets [] is the price that I recommend you would charge, because my prices were not always a good idea.

Kassem wrote:

How much would you charge (on average) for:

1. A static HTML/CSS 5-10 page website. (no JS involved)
I charged $400 but it had some PHP and JS included. If it was as you said no PHP no JS I'd probably charge $300 or less. Maybe $200. [$400]

2. A static HTML/CSS 5-10 page website with some JS involved (animations, client validation, AJAX...etc).
Did this for $400, including a minimal PHP backend.
[$500]

3. A website that is fully generated by PHP, with a custom built CMS (rich text editor, image upload/resizer... etc).
That would normally be around $800.
[$1000]

4. Editing and customizing a template provided by the client. (could involve editing colors, some images and some XML files).
No idea.

5. Assuming you have to design and develop the website: Do you charge for the mock-up (in Photoshop/Fireworks) or is that part of the whole package?

As I said, these prices are excluded as this work is usually given to a designer. If I do it myself I'd charge minimal price (like $100-200).

Thanks for the feedback rolf. That's very close to what I assumed I should be charging.

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#25 December 13 2010

vic
Member

Re: How Much Should I Charge?

Its been said before but you really should be charging based on the amount of time the work is going to take you, and your experience level.

We have to put out a fixed sum since [small] clients don't really appreciate being charged hourly, its easier for them to see and judge based on a lump sum. But that doesn't mean you should be selling yourself short by having a fixed amount for each type of job. Do an analysis of the work and estimate how many hours it will take, calculate your hourly rate, come up with an estimate, present that to the client.

Do you currently have a job? Divide your annual salary by 2000 to get a quick calculation of what you get paid hourly [assuming a 40hr work week - a more exact calculation would be to divide by 2080], since you get other advantages to having a job you should probably add a bit to this amount when working freelance [make up for job security/insurance/daman]

Basically, don't sell yourself short. If you're good at what you do, and you have a decent portfolio under your belt, you shouldn't feel like you aren't getting paid what your work is worth. If your clients aren't willing to pay that much even after you explain why it deserves it, find new clients.

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