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  • 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

vlatkozelka wrote
Why not? In my career, even the worst company I've worked with was ran better than the country is. My current company is on par with European standards. Even knowing that those companies are under outside pressure (from parties) just like the country is (from other countries). But the companies thrive because they work, not steal! What is stopping our government from working for once?
It's not a one month job. IT HAS TO BE GRADUAL. You CANNOT ask for such a change without doing the basics. You need to negotiate and start from new elections and new voting system. This is the first step. The parliament is what represents people. If the prime minister resigns it's fine but without a new parliament you cannot do anything. Once you have new deputies , you start planning for new laws and new changes. If you do the math, it takes at least 2 years.

And not to mention that it's the current politicians who are going to choose the new voting law and system which means back to square one.

If you can be kind enough to explain how you're planning or going to change the regime, I'm all ears....
vlatkozelka wrote Why bring that up?
Because it's the reality. Mind you, the old generation still constitutes a big portion of the lebanese population.
vlatkozelka wrote
No they are not! Stop telling yourselves that

It's the older generation that's still corrupted (corrupted = ta2ifye, idk the exact word sorry), and are still trying to pass that out to the newer generation. Videos of little girls being asked "allah shou?" waiting to be answered "allah ouwwet" is a good proof.

If you go down to the streets, you'll find out that the new generation is mostly sick of the "system" the older generations put. In university they were the minority, and at work! The only corrupted people I still stumble upon are from the older generation...

It's time for the minority to step aside! We are sick of it...

I am not sure if you live in Lebanon, but if you do, and if you mean by new generation anyone under 18, then yeah you may have a point.
Nice thread, as long as it is calm as is, i do not think Samer minds.
We did this once before i cant remember, we urged Samer to keep the thread open for a while.

In any case, i am here to add something. I do not have any social media accounts, except watsup, so if it sounds good to you spread the word.

A vaccine is needed, i do not trust myself nor others, its harsh but hear me out.
If we have what we want (most of us), new elections and new election law ( i want to vote for the 128 members). During these elections they will add a lot of drama, a lot of "they are targeting us" drama, some will vote "nkaye bil tanyin"..etc. We might have some changes in the "new" parliament no more than 30% (i am being generous).

I propose this: High government positions from parliament member all the way to the president, with his/her consultants,team,..etc
can win and be elected to fill this position ONLY ONCE.

This will rid from the "royal" democracy. give chance to others to become a member, equal chances of getting elected/hired..etc

So whomever becomes any official, he has his/her 4-6 years to do his action plan. I want to make these jobs repulsive and not to beneficiary to scare away corrupt people.

My 2 cents
Kareem wroteYou need to negotiate and start from new elections and new voting system. This is the first step. The parliament is what represents people. If the prime minister resigns it's fine but without a new parliament you cannot do anything. Once you have new deputies , you start planning for new laws and new changes. If you do the math, it takes at least 2 years.
I am with you. Democracy is a solid base for change and stability. Let people get what they vote for and when they are ready for it.

Kareem wrote Because it's the reality. Mind you, the old generation still constitutes a big portion of the lebanese population.
What about the tens of thousands of public employees that were appointed due to their allegiances (most of them)? Do you think they will quietly go and sacrifice their livelyhood for the "revolution"?
The older generation is making a joke out of this whole movement.
While partially true that certain parties are involved in the whole movement, they make up less than half the people I know that are for (being a 21-year-old university student). I do not endorse any parties, yet if their goals are the same as ours (and abiding by the people’s rules), I don't see why not allow them to Surf the wave? Although some chants may not be the most adequate against their political rivals, we can see that most of that stopped now. (the main songs came down as a particular political leader stated ’This movement is not against us and is made by a specific political party’ which added fuel to the fire)

I still don't understand why some parties are even contributing in protesting with the terms ”Kelloun ya3ne Kelloun, but not X”, what's even more disturbing is that this X contains a significant portion of the people in power, making me wonder against whom and what are they protesting in the first place. Following this logic, if the movement wants everyone out, everyone should be out. And if you believe that your politician is ’clean,’ vote for him back, it's that simple — no need to break the whole movement’s process because of your ideological subjective point of view. It's no surprise he who is doing so is majorly the elderly, alongside the brainwashed, with most of their arguments going back dozens of years. We don't live in the past anymore.

Day by day, we see improvement, from scaring them to getting them to tick some steps off our lists. Although our goals seem a bit unrealistic, they're not impossible. We may not be able to get the people’s money back, but we can at least mop some heads out.

Also, does anyone know any embassies endorsing this movement? I'd love some extra pocket money.
EVERYONE i recommend to share your opinion why do you support the revolution ? and if not why not ? and How are you supporting the revolution ? in the end its your country and if you don't share your thought about it that means you dont care about your future and family's future since they will be governed by X leaders that may support and combat for another X country and not your country.

From my side, i fully support the revolution however its a long road and i think it should be fully organised like how honk kong is doing. Massive protest during the weekend for example. Organized over the internet and everyone could help the revolution by picking one responsibility so no burden on some people or organizers. Many people are hesitating and not joining the protests because they dont believe in change and this needs to be worked on ALOT. For example make alot of music videos that helps this issue.
Sorry, but hong kong is absolutely wrong example. They keep destructing everything around and rioting, and while business owners in HK/China can rely on insurance and state support, here the owners of the destroyed stores sooner or later will simply pick up weapons and go shoot protesters who have such habits.
Also, in HK anyone who speaks out with different opinion is getting beaten up, and his business is destroyed. Can you even imagine what it is to live in an atmosphere of terror?
Just watch https://twitter.com/liamstone_19 , it is pro-mainland account, but he supply enough credible proof how violent is this protest and how biased is media to cover it.
nuclearcat wroteSorry, but hong kong is absolutely wrong example. They keep destructing everything around and rioting, and while business owners in HK/China can rely on insurance and state support, here the owners of the destroyed stores sooner or later will simply pick up weapons and go shoot protesters who have such habits.
Also, in HK anyone who speaks out with different opinion is getting beaten up, and his business is destroyed. Can you even imagine what it is to live in an atmosphere of terror?
Just watch https://twitter.com/liamstone_19 , it is pro-mainland account, but he supply enough credible proof how violent is this protest and how biased is media to cover it.
Yea we lived that feeling when hizbollah decided to riot in the streets not long ago against beirutis. Anyway that is not what im trying to suggest. I gave a good example that protest can be done only during the weekend. So we can give good examples for the protestors to follow.
potato wrote Yea we lived that feeling when hizbollah decided to riot in the streets not long ago against beirutis. Anyway that is not what im trying to suggest. I gave a good example that protest can be done only during the weekend. So we can give good examples for the protestors to follow.
Bad idea, the country will no longer be pressured at all, making it furthermore indifferent for them. Same goes for why we don't want the roads open.
Johnaudi wrote
potato wrote Yea we lived that feeling when hizbollah decided to riot in the streets not long ago against beirutis. Anyway that is not what im trying to suggest. I gave a good example that protest can be done only during the weekend. So we can give good examples for the protestors to follow.
Bad idea, the country will no longer be pressured at all, making it furthermore indifferent for them. Same goes for why we don't want the roads open.
Thats very wrong and shortsighted assumption. In fact, chaos and poverty are the best breeding ground for various armed groups.
All production, high-tech companies are likely to fail deliver and fail to pay their bills for supply chain. Especially those who work for export. And I think you understand very well that to take place in the international market you have to work long and painfully, but you can lose your niche very quickly. And this is jobs for students, who will become freshgrads soon, and those rare hi-tech jobs - will disappear completely.
I have already seen this in Ukraine, most of industrial production was closed or moved outside , even programming outsourcing companies calculated the risks and it was cheaper for them to buy office in nearby countries, visas for workers, than to bear all the risks of the revolution.
But now in Ukraine we have armed neo-Nazi groups (ex: Azov, recently US congress discussed to put them in terror list) that openly refuse to end the conflict in the east and threaten the president, and where tens of thousands of young people flocking in to join.

P.S. If you think, "well, we are of course different," no, you are not. There are recipes for success to look, and they were doomed to succeed from first sight. Partially - Georgia, absolute success - Armenia. You do not have what they had - a single "unity" leader with advisors, clear plan of action how to FIX things.
hi everyone,
I skimmed through the comments and I will try to highlight objectivly some points and add my opinions to the mix.

lets first see the pros of the movement:
1) for the first time since 2005 you such level of unity and even better, only lebanese flags are raised
2) for the first time politicians feel pressured and threatened by the people
3) Some cities managed to change the wrong identity it carried for so long; the main one being Tripoli
4) the demands raised are by the people and for the people, and all demands are just and the right for every lebanese to have them fulfilled

Cons:
1) the demands seem to be all over, agreeing on a list of critical demands with certain timetable is a must, the rest of reforms will follow in due time
2) some demands, and one in particular, is just wishful thinking imo, see Lebanese situation is unique by having a major force present next to the lebanese army, protesting will not bring such force down; Realistic goals should be specified, drifting away in dreams may end up in losing all momentum acheived by the movement
3) some of the numbers i keep hearing are flat out lies, I fully agree with the demands but stating wrong numbers annoys me, and that include the number of protestors claimed, guys, open google maps and calculate surface area of every major square where protests are taking place in sq. m, add them up and multiply by a generous 4 person per sq. m, you'll see that it never crossed 200K, saying 2 million is just flat out wrong. Same goes for the humam chain, it just didnt work, it was a stupid proposal to begin with and it failed yet i keep seeing videos caliming its success.
4)i accept that the goverment should be replaced, but insisiting on it fall right now may be devastating, instead the movement should give its comments on the suggested list of reforms, agree to it with changes added if any, clear the roads and stay only in squares in numbers as a reminder that they can call for a mother of all protest if the gov fail to abide with the list of reforms, and if all is good, when new elections are due, make the real change there.

I really hope to see real changes as we can all agree that the current situation aint sustainable anymore.
Metalloy wrotehi everyone,
I skimmed through the comments and I will try to highlight objectivly some points and add my opinions to the mix.

lets first see the pros of the movement:
1) for the first time since 2005 you such level of unity and even better, only lebanese flags are raised
2) for the first time politicians feel pressured and threatened by the people
3) Some cities managed to change the wrong identity it carried for so long; the main one being Tripoli
4) the demands raised are by the people and for the people, and all demands are just and the right for every lebanese to have them fulfilled

Cons:
1) the demands seem to be all over, agreeing on a list of critical demands with certain timetable is a must, the rest of reforms will follow in due time
2) some demands, and one in particular, is just wishful thinking imo, see Lebanese situation is unique by having a major force present next to the lebanese army, protesting will not bring such force down; Realistic goals should be specified, drifting away in dreams may end up in losing all momentum acheived by the movement
3) some of the numbers i keep hearing are flat out lies, I fully agree with the demands but stating wrong numbers annoys me, and that include the number of protestors claimed, guys, open google maps and calculate surface area of every major square where protests are taking place in sq. m, add them up and multiply by a generous 4 person per sq. m, you'll see that it never crossed 200K, saying 2 million is just flat out wrong. Same goes for the humam chain, it just didnt work, it was a stupid proposal to begin with and it failed yet i keep seeing videos caliming its success.
4)i accept that the goverment should be replaced, but insisiting on it fall right now may be devastating, instead the movement should give its comments on the suggested list of reforms, agree to it with changes added if any, clear the roads and stay only in squares in numbers as a reminder that they can call for a mother of all protest if the gov fail to abide with the list of reforms, and if all is good, when new elections are due, make the real change there.

I really hope to see real changes as we can all agree that the current situation aint sustainable anymore.
You must be kidding, agree on reforms? What reforms?!

The reforms are just a bad lie. The only thing they will do from the list is selling the profitable sectors such as the telecom sector.

And you know what, we are already in a devastating position, and the reason behind that is the same party suggesting the reforms.
i did say whatever points that need to be edited let it be done before agreeing on the reforms.
Metalloy wrotei did say whatever points that need to be edited let it be done before agreeing on the reforms.
would you do a gentleman's agrreement with someone who has a long history of lying over and over and over ...

do you trust this ruling team? by any means? and to do any reforms?
As a foreigner, I am forced to skip too political points (this is the law), I will only comment on technical ones.
Metalloy wrotehi everyone,
1) for the first time since 2005 you such level of unity and even better, only lebanese flags are raised
If we talk about unity, i am observing strength of Lebanese unity each day. When it come to fighting common enemy, helping poor and similar stuff - Lebanese very united. It was never a problem to see it, and this is where Lebanese stronger than other nations.
But, when if comes to the division of limited goodies(chairs in govt, power and influence, even just good jobs), problem & division begins. Its not Lebanese fault, just all humans the same.
Metalloy wrote 3) Some cities managed to change the wrong identity it carried for so long; the main one being Tripoli
Sorry, but identity can't be changed in few days.
And, anyway, as a foreigner, I never had doubts that Tripoli is a wonderful city with wonderful people. The problem is not city identity at all, but that city is tormented by poverty.
Metalloy wrote 4) the demands raised are by the people and for the people, and all demands are just and the right for every lebanese to have them fulfilled
These requirements are captain obvious demands. Everyone knows about them for a long time, the question is which of them to solve first, with limited resources.
And by the way, voicing of problems does not say at all about the scale of these problems and what methods of solving these problems are acceptable.
For example, education. Maybe enough free primary education, and protesters want subsidies for education at Harvard University? Difficulty is not to hear the problem of free education, but to find a solution that have acceptable budget and suit most of those who want it.
@Dsoftware.king

I think you didnt read my post carefully.
I dont trust the ruling team, but I also dont trust that going all in against such party is going to lead to positive results.
reaching a power equilbrium is good,staying in the squares as a warning sign that if the reforms list is not followed all hell will break loose; that is a proper standoff.
Trying to eliminate the ruling party is an over the top move and is not going to work/ the opposing party is a powerhouse that just cemented its local and regional influence by winning the syrian war. riots wont bring them down, only acts of war will, and that my friend will send the country to the abyss.
This is reality, it sucks, but it is what it is, so, in my opinion, the movement should have a reality check and work on from there.

My heart is with the movement, and for it to be successful, realistic expectaions are a must.

Thank you
Metalloy wrote@Dsoftware.king

I think you didnt read my post carefully.
I dont trust the ruling team, but I also dont trust that going all in against such party is going to lead to positive results.
reaching a power equilbrium is good,staying in the squares as a warning sign that if the reforms list is not followed all hell will break loose; that is a proper standoff.
Trying to eliminate the ruling party is an over the top move and is not going to work/ the opposing party is a powerhouse that just cemented its local and regional influence by winning the syrian war. riots wont bring them down, only acts of war will, and that my friend will send the country to the abyss.
This is reality, it sucks, but it is what it is, so, in my opinion, the movement should have a reality check and work on from there.

My heart is with the movement, and for it to be successful, realistic expectaions are a must.

Thank you
totally agree about being realistic. Now I don't think war is an option, and all the talk about war is to intimidate people.

the problem is that the ruling party isn't giving anything to the people after all what happened in the last 11 days. backing up now will only lead to dragging a lot of protestors to courts. as for the alleged reforms, it's all lies. we've seen the same speech before parliament elections, each party promised to fight corruption yet they did nothing but to embrace it.

its the governemnt move now, and they are responsible in the first place.
I hope we will have real technocrats as ministers, not a bunch of actors and movies producers just because they are famous, we want solutions not show off
I hate to say it, but this whole thing is dying.
I don't know who decided to stop closing roads and protesting when the PM resigned, but this entire thing killed it.
Less and less people started showing for protests, i guess the resignation of the PM satisfied them somehow.

The only hope remaining will be this weekend.
If this weekend shows us the same amount of people that we saw during the first 2-3 days of the protests, in Beirut, then i guess there is still hope.
But if we don't see that amount of people in Beirut this weekend, then au revoir monsieur le revolution.
He did the first step, they're letting the country breathe for a few days until they set up the "7oukoume".