LebGeeks

nuclearcat

Member

Poisoning in restaurants

I noticed several messages over this summer about food poisoning in restaurants, same as previous years, that people start to accuse some popular place that they got poisoning in them.
What is your opinion on such incidents? Did you experienced such issues?
Then i will post my opinion and observations :)

Last edited by nuclearcat (September 5 2018)

rolf

Member

Re: Poisoning in restaurants

I lived in Europe a few years, and I would come for visit for a week, and my cousin would take me to places, that was back when there was still lots of garbage on the street, and I got pretty sick 3 times in a row (vomiting, diarhea) after that I always tried to eat at home and I was OK.

When the government lets the streets be overflowing with garbage, what do you expect?

I am not into all that anymore, anyway, I eat only from a few places. Lebanon is NOT the country for culinary exploration, just maybe for a few restaurants. We think eating in Lebanon is all that, but go to big cosmopolitan city in Europe and you will see thai, vietnamese, iranian, greek, ethiopian, tradtitional chinese (not Chopstick which is basically chinese fast food), brazilian and most of whatever you can think of with food fairs and food markets.

So when I come to Lebanese maybe I will feel like having a falafel, Shawarma, man2oushé once or twice but mostly I eat at home and it serves me well, I haven't been seriously sick ever since.

Also, when you stay here, your immune system gets stronger!

By the way there is a man with a foul cart, I see him prepare the food, he is clean and wears gloves and of course the beans cook for hours so they should be OK. It is a good option, I can get a good portion for a few thousands, go home and mix it with rice and other things and it will be a healthy meal.

People think that street food is dangerous but some of it is prejudice. It depends on the cases but in the case of foul I'm pretty sure it's safe. I believe that most poisoning happens in fancy restaurants where cooking is rushed and the staff is not necessarily qualified and god knows what happens in the kitchen in the name of maximizing profits.

Chain letters being passed on Whatsapp or Facebook is not really a reliable way to keep safe. Since there is generally low health standard in Beirut, as evidenced by the many cases of poisoning to which relatives and myself were victim, it's better to just be careful about what you eat and try to be aware of the risk.

Last edited by rolf (September 5 2018)

sero

Member

Re: Poisoning in restaurants

I think its highly related to how tolerant your stomach is (or genes maybe?)
I have the bad habit of eating outside all the time. Breakfast, lunch and dinner all delivery or in restaurants. I have never ever had any issues (I like to try new places all the time, cheap and expensive ones). I guess I am just lucky!

A friend of mine has a company that fixes restaurant kitchen equipment. He works with a lot of Beirut restaurants/snacks
He says that a loot of restaurant kitchens are disgusting. I won't put any names here, but you will be surprised by popular restaurants and how dirty their kitchen is.

rolf

Member

Re: Poisoning in restaurants

I have never ever had any issues

You mean you haven't put on any weight?

He says that a loot of restaurant kitchens are disgusting. I won't put any names here, but you will be surprised by popular restaurants and how dirty their kitchen is.

I remember going to the Chef in Gemmayze, before they had a makeover, and they had a bottle of Baygon in the middle of the kitchen, I could tell they would be using it often. However at least you could see what is happening, I'm sure there is worse.

But I would still go to Le Chef.

On the other hand, once I went to a restaurant where I would often go to eat chicken shawarma, and once I saw them pre-cook chicken, they would pre-cook a batch of chicken on the grill, then pile them, and bring on the raw chicken from the fridge which was dripping marinade, and put it on top of the pre-cooked chicken, so the marinade from the raw chicken would drip on the pre-cooked chicken.

I felt that this is a sign of laxism or lack of understanding in food safety basics.

I haven't been to this place again ever since.

Anyway we would not want you to give any names, however do you think you can draw parallels? For example I believe that I have an intuition about clean places through many small signs. That and I can smell nasty food!

I have a feeling that the most pretentious restaurants, the ones that care about their image are some of the worst. But I can't know for sure. Sometimes also it's the cheap and crappy ones where you could also get served harmful food.

Last edited by rolf (September 5 2018)

sero

Member

Re: Poisoning in restaurants

You mean you haven't put on any weight?

haha I am a sports addict and I have good metabolism

however do you think you can draw parallels

I don't have an intuition about clean places as you do! However every time I go somewhere I do the following checks:
1- how clean are the toilets
2- check how are the staff cleaning the tables after someone pays the bill and leaves

if they look good I guess their kitchen must be also clean.
For snack restaurants (or sushi or anyplace i can see the chef) I tend to look at the chefs nails (in case no gloves).

Related Baygon, in a burger restaurant in raouche area, a cockroach went from the bathroom to the dining area. The waiter saw it, stepped on it and slid it under one of the dining tables! He saw me looking at him and said "yazalami hay awwal mara bestir", I replied "et mbala"

Another tip: try to go to the kitchen. If you were "aggressively" blocked by one of the staff, the kitchen is dirty.

nuclearcat

Member

Re: Poisoning in restaurants

Quite reasonable advices! Thanks for sharing guys.

My point was, that people often very quick on accusations to restaurants. Basic logic and some experience says, that if restaurant have serious problems with food safety, many people will get sick and definitely it will be very visible. And because in Lebanon "mezze" is popular and people rarely visit restaurants alone, means most likely at least your comrades who visited together with you wont feel well.
(but note if you visited with family, it might be your own kitchen, not restaurant, incubation period for salmonella might be several days).
Also in some cases gastroenteritis is thing very hard to prevent. Someone infected by it might be visited this table before, and to clean it entirely from one of causes, norovirus, who can remain on surface for 1-2 weeks - restaurant need to use bleach and very hard cleaning procedures, which is highly unlikely will be done, especially during rush hours.
And alcohol wipes, even preferable, should not make illusion of absolute surface safety. It will remove some, but many pathogens will survive.

When one person get sick only, it doesn't exclude restaurant(but much harder to prove), but very likely it might be just weak immune system or sensitive digestive system or even personal sensitivity to specific ingredients. And at summer amount of preservatives greatly increase.
For example some of my relatives seems sensitive to specific preservative in frozen seafood, and they get poisoned in restaurant or by home food, while others are perfectly safe. Unfortunately labeling rules in Lebanon is very relaxed, and you can't really know components of products, as restaurants can't know them as well.

And reason to post, because i noticed some people get food poisoned, and quickly pointed finger on recent restaurant visit, this was spreading like wildfire without providing any credible proof, in some cases demanding compensation (fishy!). And more surprising, many of my friends, who should be smarter than this, started to share and increase amount of this madness, basically participating in baseless restaurant lynching.
At least, what should be done even in single poisoning case, if person is absolutely sure in reasons, he must have in his hands his tests where pathogen specified, so it can be forwarded to health ministry, and they (hopefully) test restaurant, or restaurant should provide papers that they are free from this pathogen, if they want to keep their reputation. And if such negotiations fail and they didnt, he can publish all collected proof and restaurant will face very reasonable backlash.

Please stay vigilant, healthy and i hope we can create society which really care about food safety scientific way, and if you see obvious baseless lynching - act and educate people around you, how to act properly in such situation.

All of the above is my personal opinion. If I have made a mistake somewhere, please correct me, and we will improve these recommendations together.

Papusan2

Member

Re: Poisoning in restaurants

Well there is one time I avoided and warned others about a restaurant that used empty and" cleaned" leaded paint container for storing "man2oshi", and afaik lead cannot be washed easily (heavy) with scratched plastic, anyways cleaned properly or not its very unsafe to ingest lead especially for the youngsters, not to mention that most pains in lebanon have false info on them being lead-free. Quoted from greenarea website:

Disturbing facts

87% of the samples, taken in Lebanon, increase the concentration of lead in about 90 ppm, and the rate of focus in the Lebanese samples is 48300 ppm, the top concentration observed in Lebanon is 236000 ppm, in “Tinol” product from the yellow color.

Samples were purchased through October of 2011 from the Lebanese market, and there were deliberately purchased from different parts of Lebanon. In order to follow up some of the results, these samples were re-bought after seven months, and there were tested.

The five brands are the following: ‘’Tinol’’, ‘’Nola’’, ‘’Omega’’, and these three marks are trademarks in Lebanon, and ‘’Sipes’’, which is an Egypt mark, and ‘’Dutch Boy’’ which have a business headquartered in the United States – Sherwin Williams USA.

False information on the label

The Information on the label about the lead content in the product are found only in Lebanon, and in only two brands that are “Tinol” (national), and “Dutch Boy” (US). But in both cases , and in contrast to what is indicated in the adhesive , it was shown that in one or more of the samples, there is a high level of lead, which is the highest in the yellow color :236000 ppm ( Tinol ) , and the other in red: 32400 ppm ( Dutch Boy ) . Interestingly, some of the colors of the products of ‘’Dutch Boy’’ marketed outside Lebanon also contain lead , but at a rate equal to half of what was found in the products offered for sale in the Lebanese market.

The headquarters of the company is in the United States, it has a branch in Lebanon that is called “Dutch Boy”, and a branch in Paraguay called “Koralit”. While the “Dutch Boy” products in Lebanon contain very high levels of lead, we can see that their products in Paraguay does not contain the amount of lead undetectable (i.e. lead-free), despite the fact that their label does not carry any reference to the lead content in the product.

The concentration of lead in various colors

It was shown that the highest concentrations of lead were found in yellow and red colors, and followed by the white color, as it was found a high concentration in some samples (2630 ppm in “Nola” product, and 2780 ppm in “Sipes” product).

Following-up the analyzes of American brand marketed in Lebanon

Two of the three samples from the American brand marketed in Lebanon (Dutch Boy) are containing high concentrations of lead – 32400 ppm and 1360 ppm. This is why we have to follow up on this subject. These purchased samples of the brand, which includes the same three colors, covered by the basic study, were examined and analyzed by the same methodology and standard roads.

The Results of the colors, which have been analyzed, are identical in both cases. The white Color is 9 ppm compared to 16 ppm in the core sample seven months ago. The Yellow color is 381 ppm compared to 1360 ppm, and the red color is 66000 ppm compared to 32400 ppm.

Comparison with the concentrations of lead samples that were analyzed in other countries

High concentrations of lead are in the white color: 2780 ppm and the red color concentration is about: 27700 ppm and this was detected in the ‘’sipes’’ paint, (headquartered in Egypt), which was purchased in Lebanon. While it were not a lead detection (lack of Pb) in the white color of the ‘’sipes’’ paint sold in Egypt, and this appeared in a recent study carried out in 2014.

Surprising conclusions

– For the first time, an analysis of lead in paints is established in Lebanon. This is what makes this study a leader in this area, and worthy to be followed in order to control and monitoring.

– The total average of lead in paints in Lebanon is up to 537 which is highest than the “maximum acceptable” approved in Canada and the United States and Nepal that is environ 90 ppm.

– Two samples of paint from the American brand ‘’Dutch Boy – Sherwin Williams’’, sold in Lebanon in containers are bearing the sticker ” free-lead”, which in fact contain high concentrations of lead (66000 ppm and 1360 ppm), while that paints from the same brand that are sold in Paraguay are completely free of lead. This begs the question about the reasons for it. Are the absence of standard binding and the absence of oversight and monitoring of official lies behind this disregard of the Lebanese children and those living in Lebanon?

– 57 % of the yellow color samples and 55% of the red color samples containing more than 10000 ppm of lead, and this level is very high, and is accompanied by a significant risk to human health and the environment.

– It appeared that three samples are containing concentrations that are less than 90 ppm, and this indicates that the technology of the production of paints free of lead actually exist in Lebanon.

Immediate action required

– In order to protect the health of current and future generations of our children, and all others exposed to this risk, there is an urgent need to enact regulations and standard binding effect immediately that are based on 90 ppm as “maximum acceptable” to the concentration of lead in paints produced, imported and marketed in Lebanon.

– We Appeal to the Ministry of Industry and other relevant authorities, to accelerate the development and adoption of this standard regulation, and the development of an integrated mechanism for control and monitoring.

– We appeal to the Ministry of Commerce, and other relevant authorities, the follow-up the subject of false information on the sticker, which afford the product packaging. We call for the control, monitoring and accounting.

– We call on the Lebanese paints industry organizations and the Association of Industrialists, to play an effective role to shift to manufacturing and marketing of products that should be consistent with international standards, in terms of lead content in it. As well as we demand from the importers to comply with international quality paints imported for marketing standards in Lebanon , in terms of lead content in it.

infiniteloop

Member

Re: Poisoning in restaurants

The number one problem in summer with restaurants are flies, sweat and mayo.
99% of restaurants don't care about flies while they carry tons of bacteria. they should use flies traps
Mayo! the infamous beloved sauce of Lebanese if kept too long outside of the fridge with the hot summer temps will turn pretty bad for your intestines
Warm kitchens will make the cooks sweat, sweat contains lot of bacteria too.
Many restaurants are employing foreign employees to do some economies while they should teach them hygiene in a kitchen they just rely on their past experience in a dark snack in Bagdad or Damascus
Conclusion: always avoid opened restaurants in summer, I know it's crazy knowing many people like to eat in outdoor in summer, avoid restaurants in summer that have warm kitchens, avoid restaurants or snacks where you see cooks sweating over you food...

xazbrat

Member

Re: Poisoning in restaurants

Another thing---avoid salads and other raw foods.  The first one may seem counterintuitive, but almost everyone I know has gotten a food bug here and all they say they have eaten was tabbouleh or fattoush.  With vegetables, they need to be cleaned in water (preferably somewhat clean), and since the main chefs don't really care about the salads, they will generally leave it to their staff to make these.  If you want some vegetables with your meal, order some cherry tomatoes, olives and whole unpeeled cucumbers and go from there. 

As for other raw foods, with the lack of electricity and other factors, keeping meat at a constant safe temperature is tough and generator electricity is expensive, so fridges aren't first on the list of things like using generator power on    Because of that, try to stay away from kibbeh and kafta nayeh and raw liver preparations, especially in the summer.  Yeah, sort of the crapshoot when going out, so if you find some restaurants that you know are clean, go there and save yourself some grief.

rolf

Member

Re: Poisoning in restaurants

How about there be more control and standards for the food, on a state level?
Maybe, you know, democracy... means "power to the people".

Papusan2

Member

Re: Poisoning in restaurants

Control and standards are not the reason why developed countries don't have these issues, it would be easier as a fix to provided 24/7 electricity, reduce the superfluous tax (with no benefits unlike European countries) as financial restraints can affect cleanliness indirectly, happiness level is one of them

nuclearcat

Member

Re: Poisoning in restaurants

Standards worth something when there is way to monitor and enforce them.
I made refrigeration control system with online monitoring.
As soon as i dont have signal or temp go out of range - operator get alert and call owner. Statistics says owners are very interested in quality, but some employees, give zero f**cks about quality of their job, they might leave door open for 30 min, because they are lazy.
Then, such average joe come to facebook and start ranting how he was poisoned in some restaurant and how things are bad around and how government is bad.
But amazing about such systems is not that. Amazing is that such system turned out much cheaper than "classic" industrial one. I believe it is very possible to digitize restaurants kitchen as well, including adding blackbox DVR with encryption (to avoid hacks and blackmailing) to each stage of food preparation, so owner/supervisor, first, can selectively review records and make decisions about quality, and second, on any incident they will have absolute proof if they are innocent or who of employees are guilty. Third, important also, they can review whole process and optimize specific parts.
And most important it wont cost much. One day i should make PoC :)
Monitoring sample (its not perfect, electricity, you know...)

nuclearcat

Member

Re: Poisoning in restaurants

Control and standards are not the reason why developed countries don't have these issues, it would be easier as a fix to provided 24/7 electricity, reduce the superfluous tax (with no benefits unlike European countries) as financial restraints can affect cleanliness indirectly, happiness level is one of them

I believe everything is solvable. If you do something by "ready business recipe" same as in country with proper electricity - you might fail in Lebanon or it will cost you a fortune.
For example classical refrigeration systems suffering from electricity in Lebanon a lot, often or they have much shorter lifetime, or they don't operate properly, or worse, periodically silently fail to keep temperature. But if you customize it, it turns out that you might go even cheaper or at least have similar cost, but secure yourself from failure.
Same for many other things

Last edited by nuclearcat (September 8 2018)

Papusan2

Member

Re: Poisoning in restaurants

Control and standards are not the reason why developed countries don't have these issues, it would be easier as a fix to provided 24/7 electricity, reduce the superfluous tax (with no benefits unlike European countries) as financial restraints can affect cleanliness indirectly, happiness level is one of them

I believe everything is solvable. If you do something by "ready business recipe" same as in country with proper electricity - you might fail in Lebanon or it will cost you a fortune.
For example classical refrigeration systems suffering from electricity in Lebanon a lot, often or they have much shorter lifetime, or they don't operate properly, or worse, periodically silently fail to keep temperature. But if you customize it, it turns out that you might go even cheaper or at least have similar cost, but secure yourself from failure.
Same for many other things

Yeah providing power is the first problem to address though, I have heard of propane/lpg powered refrigerators which is an interesting solution, although with mediocre COP so not sure about btu to $consumption ratio in Lebanon

nuclearcat

Member

Re: Poisoning in restaurants

I believe running dedicated small generator for refrigerators and restaurant will be much more efficient (because it can run also lights and etc), than running exotic lpg/propane system, that is not only ineffcient, but also will be very expensive to maintain. One of main rules of thumb, in businesses where everything is about cost efficiency - don't go to too much exotic solutions that wont have spare parts in country or engineers to maintain it.
Way i am building my solution, is that on any failure or issue, it can be replaced/downscaled even with arduino and relay or typical PID controller, other parts are serviceable too.

rolf

Member

Re: Poisoning in restaurants

Control and standards are not the reason why developed countries don't have these issues

I know in the UK, any business that produces food must have:
- License (which is subject to inspections)
- Insurance

There are standards and rules in the EU about ridiculous things such as the shape of cucumbers. So I'm sure they have standards about hygiene in meat factories, etc.

The system is very far from being perfect however there is some accountability and checks so I think it does a big difference and yes I think it's one of the main reasons.

Electricity must be provided 24h it goes without saying.

And there are occasional issues of food poisoning in developed countries. You can hear them in the news when they're big enough. But it's much better than in Lebanon where a person with a normal immune system is pretty much guaranteed food poisoning if he eats out all the time at various restaurants.

As soon as i dont have signal or temp go out of range - operator get alert and call owner. Statistics says owners are very interested in quality, but some employees, give zero f**cks about quality of their job, they might leave door open for 30 min, because they are lazy.

Then they should hire someone else, someone who gives a f**k.
If they can't afford to do that then they probably won't pay a lot for a monitoring system.

Last edited by rolf (September 9 2018)

nuclearcat

Member

Re: Poisoning in restaurants

Then they should hire someone else, someone who gives a f**k.
If they can't afford to do that then they probably won't pay a lot for a monitoring system.

Unfortunately it is almost a rule for low wage employees. Their life agenda - work less as possible. Often they dont do things bad intentionally, they are just not smart enough to understand consequences their negligence creating.
It can be fixed by flawless workflow, but only big companies can afford it.
In small companies or it is constant supervision by owner, or some digital tools that make employees think that if they do things wrong, this tools might catch that.

Last edited by nuclearcat (September 9 2018)