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#1 July 13 2017

Raficoo
Member

How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

Greetings all,

As we know, Next month new internet plans will go into effect (some users getting it now even), and right now I'm on 2Mbit/s connection(unlimited) and here are my line's current stats:
DSL_line_13_July_2017.png

EDIT: I have 2 lines for my house, one is for telephone only and the other( what I'm talking about) is for internet only.

I'm about 1.7KMs away from the centrale in a straight line (so probably around 2KM in real cable distance), which is why I think my Line attenuation is this high, however I think it could handle 4Mbit/s, but the problem is my SNR Margin, which is hovering around the safe level before it goes below 8 to 6 and below which might cause disconnections.

My phone cable from my house to the phone box was replaced once about 4 years ago, but I'm not sure what type of cable was used, so here's 2 pics:

https://postimg.org/image/9c36yzffh/

This is next to my modem, where the phone cable gets...I'm not sure how to say it, adapted to the other phone wire so that it can be plugged into my modem. What is the name of those 2 things used here?

Here's just a general pic of the wire:

https://postimg.org/image/ys4mofccp/

I couldn't find this type of phone wire online, but it looks to me it might be a simple parallel(untwisted) pair of wires!

Now, the wire goes from outside the room to the balcony and then down the side of the building (where I see some possible electrical wires running down as well next to it. Our previous telephone wire ran down from from the left side gap of the balcony, here's a pic:

https://postimg.org/image/5tmjvgg35/

As you can see, there's no electrical cables running along side the phone cable that's hugging the wall (and there's an adequate distance between it and the wires that might be electrical on that pipe). This wire would go down and at the bottom it would be right next to the phone box like this in pic(Red being how the old wire would get there after reaching the garage)

https://postimg.org/image/trnz5gmbx/:


My current wire, however, runs down the right side gap of the balcony, which I see has many phone and electrical wires, also an AC unit on the way, AND, from what I remember the electrician said he had it make the wire go through some room on the ground floor(Stationary)...so all this is most likely causing more noise!

So, thinking about it myself, I said I should replace this simple wire by CAT 5E, which might sound simple, but I need help figuring out how to transform the RJ-45 connection to an RJ-11 to fit in my modem

Also here's the hard part, I've noticed many posters here changed their wires on their phone boxes, but look at my building's phone box:
https://ibb.co/cbTCja

Judging from the phone cable type, I'd say the one marked in red is mine, and it would seem my untwisted wire assumption is correct unless I'm missing something here

So yea, let's assume I could get the cabling done, and I got the wire to reach the phone box, which Wires in the CAT 5E should be used to connect to the phone box (I see each line is connected by 2 wires), and wouldn't this require special tools? perhaps even a technician?

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to make everything clear as possible, and any help would be greatly appreciated.

Last edited by Raficoo (July 13 2017)

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#2 July 13 2017

nuclearcat
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

My eyes burning, help, help.
Your DSL modem didn't got burned yet during the lighting? Golden rule - never put wires outside building, especially in Lebanon, EMI from lightning will burn everything it can.
And yes wire not telephone at all, but in some cases it wont matter. I doubt Ogero gives matching pairs and using twisted cables.
Especially if telephone box is like this: https://postimg.org/image/trnz5gmbx/

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#3 July 13 2017

Raficoo
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

nuclearcat wrote:

Your DSL modem didn't got burned yet during the lighting? Golden rule - never put wires outside building, especially in Lebanon, EMI from lightning will burn everything it can.

Weird, I've had this modem for almost 6 years now and it's still perfectly working, never heard of anyone's modems being fried in the building as well(who have their wires running down the building)

If I install inside the building, iit will go through the electrical room(inside there's circuit breakers for both state electricity and private generators, so plenty of constant EMI in there I'd say

nuclearcat wrote:

And yes wire not telephone at all, but in some cases it wont matter. I doubt Ogero gives matching pairs and using twisted cables.
Especially if telephone box is like this: https://postimg.org/image/trnz5gmbx/

I didn't understand what you quite meant by this. I also forget to mention, I have one line for just telephone and another(this one) for internet

Also, here's a full res pic of the phone box https://ibb.co/cbTCja

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#4 July 13 2017

nuclearcat
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

I mean if things are installed in such shitty way, it doesnt matter what wires are.

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#5 July 14 2017

anayman_k7
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

This black cable you are using is a normal electric cable, be aware such cables has high resistance for the the phone line voltage, I recommend you switch any electric cable used for the phone with a network Cat5, use only pairs of the cable or get a proper phone copper wire

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#6 July 14 2017

xazbrat
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

Before you go jumping to doing stuff that won't help much or at all, have an ogero tech come in and test your connection from the box and from your apartment.  If it is crappy at the box, then changing the line from the box would be not be helpful and probably be mostly a waste of time and effort.  OTOH, if there is a significant difference, then start taking the recommendations of the other members into consideration.

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#7 July 14 2017

ahb21
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

anayman_k7 wrote:

This black cable you are using is a normal electric cable, be aware such cables has high resistance for the the phone line voltage, I recommend you switch any electric cable used for the phone with a network Cat5, use only pairs of the cable or get a proper phone copper wire

Do you know where I can hire a professional in Beirut to do this for me?
My phone box is not quite as messy as the ones posted in this thread, but I have no idea whatsoever with how to proceed with things so its better to hire a professional.

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#8 July 14 2017

nuclearcat
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

xazbrat wrote:

Before you go jumping to doing stuff that won't help much or at all, have an ogero tech come in and test your connection from the box and from your apartment.  If it is crappy at the box, then changing the line from the box would be not be helpful and probably be mostly a waste of time and effort.  OTOH, if there is a significant difference, then start taking the recommendations of the other members into consideration.

Perfect advice, +1

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#9 July 14 2017

Raficoo
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

Well I just found this screenshot of my modem's stats that I took on April 16 this year, and it seems my SNR Margin was better back then (22.5 vs 10 now), so I got a feeling people turning on ACs and maybe new equipment might be causing SNR Margin to drop due to EMI

April 16:
DSL_16-4-2017.png

Could also be those exposed cables at the phone box degraded due to rusting from being out to the open like that.

I mean, hell, I didn't even know this was an electrical wire rather than a data one, so replacing it with a twisted CAT 5E cable, and letting it go through a path with much less possible EMI would help I think....as for Ogero, yea I think I should call, but last time a team was here (when I had alot of disconnections due to a very loose cable..I think from the wire-to-wire at the phone box, they said if I had anymore trouble to call an electrician :/

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#10 July 14 2017

nuclearcat
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

Try to bring UPS with modem and laptop, and hook directly filter to wires in box maybe (but temporary detach your wires to apartment), and check stats from laptop.
This will show how good are signal "in the box".

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#11 July 14 2017

xazbrat
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

nuclearcat wrote:

Try to bring UPS with modem and laptop, and hook directly filter to wires in box maybe (but temporary detach your wires to apartment), and check stats from laptop.
This will show how good are signal "in the box".

Yeah--about to say something similar.  Bring the modem down and bring up your line stats from the box and compare them to the ones from your apartment.  In all honesty, I think changing them couldn't hurt.  Try to find a shielded Cat6 cable.maybe gel filled,  and you can minimize any outside interference.

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#12 July 14 2017

Raficoo
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

nuclearcat wrote:

Try to bring UPS with modem and laptop, and hook directly filter to wires in box maybe (but temporary detach your wires to apartment), and check stats from laptop.
This will show how good are signal "in the box".

xazbrat wrote:

Yeah--about to say something similar.  Bring the modem down and bring up your line stats from the box and compare them to the ones from your apartment.  In all honesty, I think changing them couldn't hurt.  Try to find a shielded Cat6 cable.maybe gel filled,  and you can minimize any outside interference.


Not sure what you meant by "hook directly filter" as I have an internet line connected directly from my modem to the phone box, but I'm guessing you both mean I should go down, and connect a modem(luckily I still have my older wired-only modem) to the phone box right next to it to see how the stats will be without the journey up to my house.

Sounds like a good idea, but I would still need some technician to help me to actually connect it to the phonebox lol

Guess I should try calling Ogero to test my line, perhaps I'll have better luck this time with Mr.Imad now in charge

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#13 July 14 2017

H.S
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

The phone box is pretty messed up. As shown in this picture "https://ibb.co/cbTCja" it is so unprofessional and badly installed, they are not even wrapped with electrical tape. Are they out in the open and prone to rain? Where is the cover for the box? they must be corroded by now. Those blue and red cables are probably electrical cables installed between Ogero's punched down phone cables and the the ones going to the house. The right way to install them is to connect the punched down (thinner/colored) cables, and connect them directly to the cable going up to the house using scotchloks, they are filled with gel to prevent corrosion.

@nuclearcat, modems won't get fried from lightning, there is a ground cable especially installed to prevent such thing, like the black cable showing in this picture " http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h415/Sasukiii/phone%20box.jpg" however lightning can cause fluctuation in SNR, can be kept to bare minimum when syncing to ADSL2/2+.

As suggested, do the test directly from the phone box first, you can connect the phone cable directly to a phone junction box (that also answers your question about how to transform an RJ-45 connector to RJ-11) the junction box has an RJ-11 output. Bring your UPS, modem, laptop near Ogero's phone box and do the test.

I would still recommend changing the cable even if you don't get a significant improvement, especially if you want to rely on copper for years to come because: A- the setup is badly installed, B- the cable category isn't ideal for ADSL usage, this is a regular power cable. Don't get any cheap cable that is branded CAT5e or CAT6. I recommend a CAT6 over a CAT5e because it has more twists per inch which can further decrease noise. Get a solid cable, avoid stranded ones. There are three good brands that you can find here, 3M, D-Link and DINTEK. I got a sample of a cheap CAT6 cable, it is barely twisted and the conductors are oddly thin. For the junction box, there is a specific type that is available here, I used to have a different one which gave a bad SNR due to thin copper connectors. Also a high quality phone cable (the one connecting the junction box to the modem) can also help. I have two high quality ones, but for some reason, one give a higher (+1dB) SNR than the other.

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#14 July 14 2017

Padre
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

When you do the test, disconnect the outgoing cable (the one running to your house).
Also regarding the cable, i would recommend using a cat5 shielded if you are going to suspend it outside to pass it near power sources.

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#15 July 15 2017

Techlover
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

H.S wrote:

The phone box is pretty messed up. As shown in this picture "https://ibb.co/cbTCja" it is so unprofessional and badly installed, they are not even wrapped with electrical tape. Are they out in the open and prone to rain? Where is the cover for the box? they must be corroded by now. Those blue and red cables are probably electrical cables installed between Ogero's punched down phone cables and the the ones going to the house. The right way to install them is to connect the punched down (thinner/colored) cables, and connect them directly to the cable going up to the house using scotchloks, they are filled with gel to prevent corrosion.

@nuclearcat, modems won't get fried from lightning, there is a ground cable especially installed to prevent such thing, like the black cable showing in this picture " http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h415/Sasukiii/phone%20box.jpg" however lightning can cause fluctuation in SNR, can be kept to bare minimum when syncing to ADSL2/2+.

As suggested, do the test directly from the phone box first, you can connect the phone cable directly to a phone junction box (that also answers your question about how to transform an RJ-45 connector to RJ-11) the junction box has an RJ-11 output. Bring your UPS, modem, laptop near Ogero's phone box and do the test.

I would still recommend changing the cable even if you don't get a significant improvement, especially if you want to rely on copper for years to come because: A- the setup is badly installed, B- the cable category isn't ideal for ADSL usage, this is a regular power cable. Don't get any cheap cable that is branded CAT5e or CAT6. I recommend a CAT6 over a CAT5e because it has more twists per inch which can further decrease noise. Get a solid cable, avoid stranded ones. There are three good brands that you can find here, 3M, D-Link and DINTEK. I got a sample of a cheap CAT6 cable, it is barely twisted and the conductors are oddly thin. For the junction box, there is a specific type that is available here, I used to have a different one which gave a bad SNR due to thin copper connectors. Also a high quality phone cable (the one connecting the junction box to the modem) can also help. I have two high quality ones, but for some reason, one give a higher (+1dB) SNR than the other.

Where could we find solid cat 6 cables ? Katranji ?
Most of the electrical equipment or network shops around me don't have the solid cat6 and not the brands you mentioned , they have some cheap cat6 stranded cables

Last edited by Techlover (July 15 2017)

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#16 July 15 2017

nuclearcat
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

Make sure cable is solid _copper_. Because for ethernet often in Lebanon it appears aluminium/steel with copper galvanization (outer thin layer only), it works for ethernet due skin effect, but wont work for DSL.

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#17 July 15 2017

nuclearcat
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

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#18 July 15 2017

H.S
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

Padre wrote:

When you do the test, disconnect the outgoing cable (the one running to your house).
Also regarding the cable, i would recommend using a cat5 shielded if you are going to suspend it outside to pass it near power sources.

I don't recommend shielded cables for external installation, whether it is mesh or foil, it'll absorb a lot of EMP (Electromagnetic Pulse) from lightning which will cause a lot of SNR fluctuation. Shielded cables also require grounding to benefit from the shield. They're only necessary if installed parallel to power cables and heavy machinery.

Techlover wrote:

Where could we find solid cat 6 cables ? Katranji ?
Most of the electrical equipment or network shops around me don't have the solid cat6 and not the brands you mentioned , they have some cheap cat6 stranded cables

Macrotronics has D-Link CAT6, Katranji has DINTEK, both are solid and of high quality, pure copper cables. Stranded cables aren't bad, they cost more to manufacture and are more expensive. They also have more attenuation. Solid cables are more suitable for external and permanent installation, they're less flexible and shouldn't be bent.

nuclearcat wrote:

Make sure cable is solid _copper_. Because for ethernet often in Lebanon it appears aluminium/steel with copper galvanization (outer thin layer only), it works for ethernet due skin effect, but wont work for DSL.

You mean pure copper, the ones mixed with other materials like Aluminium aren't pure copper. Usually good quality cables are pure copper, Solid and stranded are of a different story.

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#19 July 15 2017

Techlover
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

H.S wrote:
Padre wrote:

When you do the test, disconnect the outgoing cable (the one running to your house).
Also regarding the cable, i would recommend using a cat5 shielded if you are going to suspend it outside to pass it near power sources.

I don't recommend shielded cables for external installation, whether it is mesh or foil, it'll absorb a lot of EMP (Electromagnetic Pulse) from lightning which will cause a lot of SNR fluctuation. Shielded cables also require grounding to benefit from the shield. They're only necessary if installed parallel to power cables and heavy machinery.

Techlover wrote:

Where could we find solid cat 6 cables ? Katranji ?
Most of the electrical equipment or network shops around me don't have the solid cat6 and not the brands you mentioned , they have some cheap cat6 stranded cables

Macrotronics has D-Link CAT6, Katranji has DINTEK, both are solid and of high quality, pure copper cables. Stranded cables aren't bad, they cost more to manufacture and are more expensive. They also have more attenuation. Solid cables are more suitable for external and permanent installation, they're less flexible and shouldn't be bent.

nuclearcat wrote:

Make sure cable is solid _copper_. Because for ethernet often in Lebanon it appears aluminium/steel with copper galvanization (outer thin layer only), it works for ethernet due skin effect, but wont work for DSL.

You mean pure copper, the ones mixed with other materials like Aluminium aren't pure copper. Usually good quality cables are pure copper, Solid and stranded are of a different story.

I looked on macrotronics website and katranji they dom't mention if it is stranded or solid , and it seems there are no 50 or 100 m packs ? Because i won't need 305 m

EDIT:never mind, i found 100 meters packs

Last edited by Techlover (July 15 2017)

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#20 July 15 2017

H.S
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

@Techlover, You can search the model number for the specs, I already did long time ago and they are both solid. I am currently using the D-Link from Macro, it is solid and they usually come in standard 305m rolls. I still have like 50 to 60m left.

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#21 July 15 2017

jazzzar
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

H.S wrote:

The phone box is pretty messed up. As shown in this picture "https://ibb.co/cbTCja" it is so unprofessional and badly installed, they are not even wrapped with electrical tape. Are they out in the open and prone to rain? Where is the cover for the box? they must be corroded by now. Those blue and red cables are probably electrical cables installed between Ogero's punched down phone cables and the the ones going to the house. The right way to install them is to connect the punched down (thinner/colored) cables, and connect them directly to the cable going up to the house using scotchloks, they are filled with gel to prevent corrosion.

@nuclearcat, modems won't get fried from lightning, there is a ground cable especially installed to prevent such thing, like the black cable showing in this picture " http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h415/Sasukiii/phone%20box.jpg" however lightning can cause fluctuation in SNR, can be kept to bare minimum when syncing to ADSL2/2+.

As suggested, do the test directly from the phone box first, you can connect the phone cable directly to a phone junction box (that also answers your question about how to transform an RJ-45 connector to RJ-11) the junction box has an RJ-11 output. Bring your UPS, modem, laptop near Ogero's phone box and do the test.

I would still recommend changing the cable even if you don't get a significant improvement, especially if you want to rely on copper for years to come because: A- the setup is badly installed, B- the cable category isn't ideal for ADSL usage, this is a regular power cable. Don't get any cheap cable that is branded CAT5e or CAT6. I recommend a CAT6 over a CAT5e because it has more twists per inch which can further decrease noise. Get a solid cable, avoid stranded ones. There are three good brands that you can find here, 3M, D-Link and DINTEK. I got a sample of a cheap CAT6 cable, it is barely twisted and the conductors are oddly thin. For the junction box, there is a specific type that is available here, I used to have a different one which gave a bad SNR due to thin copper connectors. Also a high quality phone cable (the one connecting the junction box to the modem) can also help. I have two high quality ones, but for some reason, one give a higher (+1dB) SNR than the other.

I'm using electric cables like the one in the pictures of Raficoo for phone and dsl, why is it bad? My snr margin is above 6db but getting lots of CRC after the upgrade from 1Mbps to 4Mbps, does changing it to CAT6 fix this problem?

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#22 July 16 2017

Hassan
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

Morning guys, I have been recommended the following by someone who is very well informed and knowledgeable:

As most of my cabling is run outside the building (from the connection box to my house through the balcony) and since there are lots of electrical cables around, I was recommended to use the black copper pair of cables (over the cat6 or 7) as it is "resistant to weather and some interference to some point"; also "Its plastic coating is thick enough to resude electrical interference".

This is different than what most of you are recommending so what do you guys think? If I were to rewire the cables to my house would I be better off using the black copper cable? Also if I managed to change the path of the wires to stay MOSTLY within the building (only a small portion outside), would your recommendation become different? Cat 6/7 over copper cables ?

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#23 July 16 2017

nuclearcat
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

Outdoor, UV resistant cat5/6/7 exist too.
"Black" wire means nothing, it stupid advice, sorry. Especially stupid is about "some interference". Interference resistance is dependent on shielding and cable pair twisting. As said before - using shield is not easy thing, even with grounding ,there is many details, so you can avoid it, but as DSL signal is not Khz, but still below 10Mhz, any twisted pair(even cat3) with proper wire gauge and material (should be pure copper) is suitable. using regular, non-twisted cable is not recommended.
P.S. About plastic coating thick enough to resude interference - it shows person is completely illiterate in properties of electrical signalling, and he dont even know how things work.

About outdoor resistance, everything depends on insulation, or cable jacket material - it should be outdoor type and UV resistant. You need to ask cable details, if you care about that, and yes thats one more reason to not run cable outside building (UV resistance limits cable choice a lot). But technically your cable may survive year or two outside.
Outdoor, uv resistant in any case will be much more expensive than normal cable with proper insulation.

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#24 July 16 2017

Techlover
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

nuclearcat wrote:

Outdoor, UV resistant cat5/6/7 exist too.
"Black" wire means nothing, it stupid advice, sorry. Especially stupid is about "some interference". Interference resistance is dependent on shielding and cable pair twisting. As said before - using shield is not easy thing, even with grounding ,there is many details, so you can avoid it, but as DSL signal is not Khz, but still below 10Mhz, any twisted pair(even cat3) with proper wire gauge and material (should be pure copper) is suitable. using regular, non-twisted cable is not recommended.
P.S. About plastic coating thick enough to resude interference - it shows person is completely illiterate in properties of electrical signalling, and he dont even know how things work.

About outdoor resistance, everything depends on insulation, or cable jacket material - it should be outdoor type and UV resistant. You need to ask cable details, if you care about that, and yes thats one more reason to not run cable outside building (UV resistance limits cable choice a lot). But technically your cable may survive year or two outside.
Outdoor, uv resistant in any case will be much more expensive than normal cable with proper insulation.

cat6 for outdoor is extremely expensive, do you think regular good quality cat6 would be ok for outside wiring ? Like D-Link as H.S suggested ?

Last edited by Techlover (July 16 2017)

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#25 July 16 2017

Hassan
Member

Re: How to improve my connection's stats? (SNR margin)

nuclearcat wrote:

Outdoor, UV resistant cat5/6/7 exist too.
"Black" wire means nothing, it stupid advice, sorry. Especially stupid is about "some interference". Interference resistance is dependent on shielding and cable pair twisting. As said before - using shield is not easy thing, even with grounding ,there is many details, so you can avoid it, but as DSL signal is not Khz, but still below 10Mhz, any twisted pair(even cat3) with proper wire gauge and material (should be pure copper) is suitable. using regular, non-twisted cable is not recommended.
P.S. About plastic coating thick enough to resude interference - it shows person is completely illiterate in properties of electrical signalling, and he dont even know how things work.

About outdoor resistance, everything depends on insulation, or cable jacket material - it should be outdoor type and UV resistant. You need to ask cable details, if you care about that, and yes thats one more reason to not run cable outside building (UV resistance limits cable choice a lot). But technically your cable may survive year or two outside.
Outdoor, uv resistant in any case will be much more expensive than normal cable with proper insulation.

Hmm to tell you the truth I was not very convinced that copper wires (no matter how thick they were especially that they are not twisted) would be better than cat5/6/7. That's why I asked since you seem more knowledgeable in this field than I am (I read your article). So thank you for clarifying.

I have another question, if I may ask:

Supposing you could get any of the cables from the list below (and supposing money was not an issue), what would you choose and why?
If it is case dependent and you cannot give a general answer, I can email you a pdf file showing the wiring in my building (it might be of help to you with your article about bad wiring).
2dcieex.jpg

Thank you in advance.

Last edited by Hassan (July 16 2017)

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