LebGeeks

vegetaleb

Banned

Televisions war!

Ok so now I want to choose a good 40-43'' TV for mainly gaming and great stability, my last samsung was a pain in the a** in terms of product quality so I am afraid of samsung TVs right now.
So what do you think about:
-Toshiba TVs? There is a good 40'' L5450 that comes with Android OS meaning lot of fun with apps and games.
-Sony TVs? How good is the input lag of these TVs? Should I get the expensive Android version?
-I made a deep search about LG 4K TVs as I saw the UF680 for 650$ but as I understood it's not a real 4K TV as it lacks some sub-pixels + it's slow for games with 60ms.
-What about LG new lines of 40LF540 ? They miss the smart stuff but they look rock solid for games and picture quality.
-Sharp,Philips...?
So if you have any of these or you had an experience with Toshiba TVs please share your experience.
Should I get a 40'' FHD now and sell it in 2 years to get a 4K TV then, also GPUs will be more capable to handle 4k at 60fps.
Or I really should pay the extra hundred $ and get a 4K as the TV will anyway upscale the PC graphics to a better result than 1080p?

ballad

Member

Re: Televisions war!

4K won't be usable in movies or in games till at least 3 years.

PC:  for 4k gaming you need now 2x gtx980ti to achieve a 60fps, and playing on 1920x1080 on a 4k tv, you will feel the downscaled picture since you are not playing on the screen's native resolution.

Consoles:  they are barely outputting fullHD.

Movies:  companies won't kill blu-ray till at least another 3 years.

so since you won't be able to use the 4k, i suggest you get a fullHD.

vegetaleb

Banned

Re: Televisions war!

Yes you are right, prices of 4K dropped but still not enough to compete with FHD TVs, at least in Lebanon, the only 4K TVs under 800$ are LG ones and are either limited to 30hz or having high input lag of 60ms. It will be better to wait 2 years so we will have a much broader choice of 4K.
So now we have LG non-smart 43'' vs Toshiba Android 40'' vs Sony Android 43''.
Prices: 450$ vs 550$ vs 650$
I will go to Carrefour today to seek for offers as well as confirm Sony prices, tomorrow Khoury Home will have a ''black Friday'', dunno how far they will go in breaking prices, though I doubt they will on the Sony as it just landed.
I think starting next week LG and Sony will release their Christmas ''offers'' catalog.
Again if someone can say something about Toshiba TVs quality (picture,durability...), it will be nice

rtwo2008

Member

Re: Televisions war!

I disagree, 4K is here already. There are a lot of youtube videos that are now  shot in 4k (2160p). Ok you will not get any TV broadcasts in 4K, nor (speculation) will we see any 4K optical disc before a few years, but you could find very soon 4K downloadable video files or 4K streaming (netflix or its middleeast equivalent) and you would regret it.

Die_Kapitan

Member

Re: Televisions war!

4K won't be usable in movies or in games till at least 3 years.

PC:  for 4k gaming you need now 2x gtx980ti to achieve a 60fps, and playing on 1920x1080 on a 4k tv, you will feel the downscaled picture since you are not playing on the screen's native resolution.

Depends on the games you play and if you're willing to lower some settings, if you play games like CS:GO, DOTA 2, TF2 and LoL you only need an R9 380 or 380X, if you play AAA titles and don't mind playing on medium to high-ish settings you only need a Fury or a Fury X, if you want to max out The Witcher III on the other hand you'll need 4 Fury X's in CrossFire.

ballad

Member

Re: Televisions war!

I disagree, 4K is here already. There are a lot of youtube videos that are now  shot in 4k (2160p). Ok you will not get any TV broadcasts in 4K, nor (speculation) will we see any 4K optical disc before a few years, but you could find very soon 4K downloadable video files or 4K streaming (netflix or its middleeast equivalent) and you would regret it.

so basically, he'll be buying an expensive tv with a feature that lets him watch youtube only on his 2mbps connection.
and downscaling is worse than playing on 20fps

vegetaleb

Banned

Re: Televisions war!

Games are more and more demanding!
Even with my brand new i5 6500 and GTX 970 I can just play at 1080p with mostly everything on super Ultra with ACS, this is the 1st game I can't play with DSR 1440p. And yes I like to use Max settings in games, I only lower shadows as it doesn't make a big difference.
Sony new TVs are still not out, perhaps Khoury Home asked them to delay them till next week so they don't put them in Black Friday ;)
Sony vs LG 40'' FHD: which one wins?

ragdoll

Member

Re: Televisions war!

Games are more and more demanding!

I'd love to see your reaction to Star Citizen.

Georges00

Member

Re: Televisions war!

Some LG have their cables input on the back and are mountable.
What happens when you mount them is: You cant use the input anymore! You cant plug in your HDMI etc...
Go for TVs with side ports.
I only know about LG because I've seen one. I also own a Sony TV which has both rear and side ports.

H.S

Member

Re: Televisions war!

I was in the same situation around two months ago. It is still not worthy to get a 4K. If I had to get a 4K TV, I would wait until they further improve the OLED technology. Until there is a 4K OLED with HDR support and low input lag with a reasonable price.

Two months ago, I got the Bravia 40W600B for $550. It is a FHD and I mainly use it for console gaming. It has a great picture quality and low input lag, around 33ms.

NAM

Member

Re: Televisions war!

Since we don't have all the TV selections in lebanon i suggest you google each product on the internet before you buy them (take note that some TV even with brand names are made for the middle east or Chinese market and have lower quality than the originals).

vegetaleb

Banned

Re: Televisions war!

I was in the same situation around two months ago. It is still not worthy to get a 4K. If I had to get a 4K TV, I would wait until they further improve the OLED technology. Until there is a 4K OLED with HDR support and low input lag with a reasonable price.

Two months ago, I got the Bravia 40W600B for $550. It is a FHD and I mainly use it for console gaming. It has a great picture quality and low input lag, around 33ms.

Is it a smart TV?
It looks like the new version of smart Sony TV will come with Android, I saw a 4K Android Sony today at Khoury Home and it was the best picture quality I ever saw but it was in the 1500$, so in 2 years this TV will cost 650$
All 4K TVs are not equal, some are not real 4K like the new LF680 of LG, and some have better 24P color reproduction and cost much more, this 4K thingy need another year or 2 to settle down.
Now I think I will go for a solid FHD TV, either Sony, LG or Toshiba

H.S

Member

Re: Televisions war!

It is a smart TV with built in WiFi. It has a picture quality present in higher end TVs but navigating through apps is a bit slow.

rtwo2008

Member

Re: Televisions war!

I disagree, 4K is here already. There are a lot of youtube videos that are now  shot in 4k (2160p). Ok you will not get any TV broadcasts in 4K, nor (speculation) will we see any 4K optical disc before a few years, but you could find very soon 4K downloadable video files or 4K streaming (netflix or its middleeast equivalent) and you would regret it.

so basically, he'll be buying an expensive tv with a feature that lets him watch youtube only on his 2mbps connection.
and downscaling is worse than playing on 20fps

Yes, that's part of it. You are making youtube sound like something trivial; it's not.  You are talking about now, I am talking about now and tomorrow (next 2-3 years).

vegetaleb

Banned

Re: Televisions war!

I disagree, 4K is here already. There are a lot of youtube videos that are now  shot in 4k (2160p). Ok you will not get any TV broadcasts in 4K, nor (speculation) will we see any 4K optical disc before a few years, but you could find very soon 4K downloadable video files or 4K streaming (netflix or its middleeast equivalent) and you would regret it.

so basically, he'll be buying an expensive tv with a feature that lets him watch youtube only on his 2mbps connection.
and downscaling is worse than playing on 20fps

Yes, that's part of it. You are making youtube sound like something trivial; it's not.  You are talking about now, I am talking about now and tomorrow (next 2-3 years).

Yes but Lebanon is late about a year in terms of price-tech, 4K TVs for gamers are still over 800$ while in the US you have this Vizio (real)120hz 49'' 4K at 530$ http://www.vizio.com/blackfriday/m49c1.html
The thing is that next year like now we will have a broader choice of 4K and under 800$, unless black Friday or Christmas offers are really like they should

vegetaleb

Banned

Re: Televisions war!

Looks like entry level Sony 350B are LCD and not LED, only W600 and W800 are LED?

rtwo2008

Member

Re: Televisions war!

I just bought the LG 55UB700T from KH at 1099$ TTC. It is just 10% (VAT) more expensive than its MSRP price in Thailand.

http://www.lg.com/th/tv/lg-55UB700T
https://www.google.com.lb/webhp?sourcei … %20to%20us

Nemesis-301

Member

Re: Televisions war!

4K won't be usable in movies or in games till at least 3 years.

PC:  for 4k gaming you need now 2x gtx980ti to achieve a 60fps, and playing on 1920x1080 on a 4k tv, you will feel the downscaled picture since you are not playing on the screen's native resolution.

Depends on the games you play and if you're willing to lower some settings, if you play games like CS:GO, DOTA 2, TF2 and LoL you only need an R9 380 or 380X, if you play AAA titles and don't mind playing on medium to high-ish settings you only need a Fury or a Fury X, if you want to max out The Witcher III on the other hand you'll need 4 Fury X's in CrossFire.

Pascal is just around the corner (2016) and its aiming for 4k gaming:

Nvidia Pascal Launching in 2016 With 10X Of Maxwell’s Performance – Features 16nm, 3D Memory, NV-Link and Mixed Precision

NVIDIA Pascal GPU To Feature 17 Billion Transistors and 32 GB HBM2 VRAM – Full CUDA Compute Architecture Arrives in 2016

Nvidia's next-gen Pascal GPU will offer 10x the performance of Titan X, 8-way SLI

vegetaleb

Banned

Re: Televisions war!

4K won't be usable in movies or in games till at least 3 years.

PC:  for 4k gaming you need now 2x gtx980ti to achieve a 60fps, and playing on 1920x1080 on a 4k tv, you will feel the downscaled picture since you are not playing on the screen's native resolution.

Depends on the games you play and if you're willing to lower some settings, if you play games like CS:GO, DOTA 2, TF2 and LoL you only need an R9 380 or 380X, if you play AAA titles and don't mind playing on medium to high-ish settings you only need a Fury or a Fury X, if you want to max out The Witcher III on the other hand you'll need 4 Fury X's in CrossFire.

Pascal is just around the corner (2016) and its aiming for 4k gaming:

Nvidia Pascal Launching in 2016 With 10X Of Maxwell’s Performance – Features 16nm, 3D Memory, NV-Link and Mixed Precision

NVIDIA Pascal GPU To Feature 17 Billion Transistors and 32 GB HBM2 VRAM – Full CUDA Compute Architecture Arrives in 2016

Nvidia's next-gen Pascal GPU will offer 10x the performance of Titan X, 8-way SLI

Knowing Nvidia it will be aimed for end 2016.

Bro a B700? If you want to game on it you won't go far, it's limited to 30hz on HDMI

Die_Kapitan

Member

Re: Televisions war!

4K won't be usable in movies or in games till at least 3 years.

PC:  for 4k gaming you need now 2x gtx980ti to achieve a 60fps, and playing on 1920x1080 on a 4k tv, you will feel the downscaled picture since you are not playing on the screen's native resolution.

Depends on the games you play and if you're willing to lower some settings, if you play games like CS:GO, DOTA 2, TF2 and LoL you only need an R9 380 or 380X, if you play AAA titles and don't mind playing on medium to high-ish settings you only need a Fury or a Fury X, if you want to max out The Witcher III on the other hand you'll need 4 Fury X's in CrossFire.

Pascal is just around the corner (2016) and its aiming for 4k gaming:

Nvidia Pascal Launching in 2016 With 10X Of Maxwell’s Performance – Features 16nm, 3D Memory, NV-Link and Mixed Precision

NVIDIA Pascal GPU To Feature 17 Billion Transistors and 32 GB HBM2 VRAM – Full CUDA Compute Architecture Arrives in 2016

Nvidia's next-gen Pascal GPU will offer 10x the performance of Titan X, 8-way SLI

Time for some mythbusting to clear some misconceptions about Pascal:

10x of Maxwell's performance:
This is a complete myth from start to finish. The belief here is that Pascal will have ten times the general computational power and so 10x the gaming performance of Maxwell. That is specifically NOT what NVIDIA said:

Mixed-Precision Computing – for Greater Accuracy
Mixed-precision computing enables Pascal architecture-based GPUs to compute at 16-bit floating point accuracy at twice the rate of 32-bit floating point accuracy.
Increased floating point performance particularly benefits classification and convolution – two key activities in deep learning – while achieving needed accuracy.

What NVIDIA said was that Pascal would have ten times the throughput in deep learning compute workloads utilizing mixed precision compared to Maxwell, which sounds impressive until you’re made aware that Maxwell is (by design) completely horrible for many compute tasks to begin with, in some cases actually many times slower than Kepler. In double-precision compute workloads for example, Maxwell GM200’s performance in FLOPs is about 1/32 of its single-precision (normal workload) performance, while Kepler GK110 puts out 1/3 of its normal performance. So ten times the performance of Maxwell in compute tasks is not necessarily as earth-shattering as it sounds.

It’s also important to keep in mind that NVIDIA didn't say the GPU would be 10x as powerful. They said it would have 10x the mixed precision throughput. Gaming workloads and compute workloads are very different, and stress different parts of the GPU system. Compute, for example, is much heavier on memory bandwidth, memory capacity, and communication with the CPU compared to gaming. These aspects of the GPU can be a major bottleneck in compute applications, but not in gaming. This means that a 10x increase in mixed precision throughput doesn't really tell us anything about the power of the GPU itself, as a lot of that can come from improvements to the memory and system interconnects and not from the GPU itself, which would improve compute performance without improving gaming performance.

NV-Link:

NVLink is an interface for connecting multiple GPUs and/or the CPU. NVLink can be used in place of PCI Express, with about 5x the bandwidth of PCI Express 3.0 x16. The full implementation of NVLink, where it entirely replaces PCIe, is only for supercomputers and servers, where they will require purpose-built motherboards and CPUs with NVLink controllers instead of PCIe controllers. So far the only CPUs we know of that are looking to fully implement NVLink in the near future are custom IBM POWER processors to be used as part of the Summit supercomputer being jointly designed and built by IBM and NVIDIA. The full NVLink implementation will not be used in the general desktop market.

In compute applications, like what supercomputers do, the connection between the GPU and the CPU (currently PCI Express) is heavily used and can be a significant bottleneck; removing that by replacing PCIe with NVLink will increase the overall throughput by quite a lot in those applications.

However, games do not need to use that connection very heavily, and so the communication bus between the GPU and CPU sees much less traffic in gaming compared to compute. PCI Express is nowhere near being a bottleneck for gaming. So even if full NVLink appeared on the desktop as a GPU-CPU interconnect, it wouldn’t provide any significant benefit to gaming performance compared to PCI Express.

8-way SLI:

This will only be possible over NVLink, meaning it will only appear in specialized systems, and unless NVLink replaces the SLI implementation we have now in consumer cards, 8-way GPUs likely won’t see usage outside of NVIDIA’s devboxes, which they announced would have up to 8 GPUs in the future with Pascal, the only mention of 8-way GPUs thus far. Various tech “news” websites as usual chose to interpret that as “8-way SLI will now be a thing!!!!!”

Even if NVLink turns out to be used in the desktop market as a multi-GPU interconnect, 8-way SLI doesn’t really have any impact on most consumers. Sure it will be fun to marvel at the one or two showcase builds that at least one or two people will surely build for conventions, but realistically hardly anyone is going to use this feature anyway even if it appears on the desktop. So it is a bit funny to see people say “You should wait for Pascal because...” and list 8-way SLI as a bullet point, as if it’s a useful consideration for regular people.

32GB of VRAM:

*UP TO 32GB of memory. The highest end Pascal-based GPU will be equipped with 32GiB of memory. This will be the highest end out of ALL Pascal cards, including Quadros and Teslas. It's extremely unlikely any gaming card will have more than 16GiB, and even that will probably only be seen on a TITAN-class card while the regular lineup will probably max out at 8GiB. Still quite a lot and unlikely to make any difference for gamers, but all the same it still isn't 32GiB, so saying “Pascal’s gonna be amazing for gaming! It’s gonna have 32GiB of memory which is way more than AMD’s next gen gaming cards will have!” is a bit misleading when 32GiB won’t be found outside of workstation cards that gamers don’t care about.

I mean, you could do the same kind of thing with generations gone by and say that AMD's Hawaii GPU was equipped with 16GiB of memory (!) or that Kepler cards had up to 12GiB of memory by including Firepros and Quadros in your tally, but pretty much anyone will agree that as far as gamers are concerned Hawaii had up to 8GiB at the very most and 4GiB normally at the high end, while Kepler had 6GiB at the very most and 3GiB normally. So once again, the 32GiB figure here is unlikely to apply to any cards gamers are interested in, just like the 16GiB Hawaii cards and 12GiB Kepler cards, these amounts will only be found in high-end Quadros and Teslas.

So, yes a Pascal card of some kind will have 32GiB of memory, but it’s probably not a good idea to get hyped about having 32GiB cards on the market if the only market you pay attention to is the gaming market, because it’s unlikely you’ll see any 32GiB cards appearing there.

HBM2:

HBM2 is an advanced type of memory which will replace GDDR5 on the new Pascal cards. It can be scaled to much higher densities and much higher bandwidth than GDDR5 while taking less space and using less power. These benefits will be seen on both compute and gaming cards alike, in the form of smaller cards and higher power efficiency. But as far as performance goes, the benefit is marginal at best for gaming since they are rarely limited by memory bandwidth.

Compute applications are a lot heavier on memory bandwidth than gaming, so they’ll benefit a lot more. Gaming performance may see some small improvements, but it’s not going to be much. We’ve already seen the impact of massive memory bandwidth increases with the AMD R9 Fury X; it does help the card pull a little bit ahead at higher resolutions, but it’s not a game changer by any means. With HBM, the R9 Fury X has certainly pushed well beyond any kind of bandwidth bottleneck at this point, so adding even more with Pascal won't really help beyond that. The diminishing returns barrier has been crossed into the no-returns zone. For gaming, anyway.

Tech Guru

Member

Re: Televisions war!

@Vegetable

I have the LG LED UHD 55" 55UB830T (100Hz Refresh Rate Panel)

- I tried Both , Currently I am Playing Native  at 4K , actually it is UHD not 4k 3,840 by 2,160 (2160p) vs 4k (4,096 by 2,160) linked through an HDMI 2.0 for 60 hz and Using 2x 980TI in SLI

- Using a Native  1080p (1920 by 1080)  Source and upscale it to   UHD , is a blurred experience , you do the math as the number of pixels are multiplied by four , but the color depth even if its upscale is nice / 1440p  to 4K is a better experience , logically.

-I recommend that you check http://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/what-is-the-refresh-rate to know the real refresh rate of the TV panel you will purchase , since each company has an inflated to  refresh rate associated with a refresh rate technology.

-I need to highlight ,  and I do recommend to read the reviews of Assassin Creed Syndicate , Fallout 4 on Joker Productions (You Tube) and GamersNexus , Its seems that an I5 6600 K or even a Haswell OC to 4.9Ghz start to bottleneck , and AAA games are leaning more to I7 , and a believe in that trend in 2016 to increase. The GTX 970 to gain more FPS OC the core clock to 1530Mhz and Memory to 8Ghz you will have a near 980 performance , and Maxwell are very efficient in OC.

-Playable 2160p is not far , stick with the 970 now , and next year purchase Pascal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5ojEukUj94

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc8GxhNmTJw

http://www.gamersnexus.net/game-bench/2 … difference

vegetaleb

Banned

Re: Televisions war!

Thanks Tech Guru!
Actually I am playing Fallout 4 with everything on Ultra + 1440p DSR@60fps only the Anitropic filtering is on 12 instead of 16.
So Fallout 4 on my system is flawless with 1440p, dunno why this joker is saying it will bottleneck.
Assassin Creed Syndicate though needs heavy GPU from the future, I wonder if Pascal is even enough lol, they use never seen before Ambiant occlusion process and shadows, if you level them down to last year tech then you get decent 50-60fps at 1080p, the game is still very gorgeous even at 1080p, the water reflections in the streets of London are very nicely done. The thing is that Ubisoft are sort of lab for Nvidia always using the latest and upcoming graphical stuff, when Pascal will be out I will definitely replay many games like ACS with everything maxed out and FC 4 at 4k (I simply still love this game).
CPU has very little impact, my ex-i5 750 was giving me the same results as the 6500 in FC 4, in some games I won 10 to 12 fps but clearly CPUs having nothing to do with games anymore, just heavy GPUs.
To go back to TV topic, I think I am going toward a Sony 40W600b, reading the reviews it has the best value for money as a 1080p, low input lag (29ms) and low response time lag.
I am waiting for the Sony and LG Christmas offers that would pop up any day now, nobody knows, perhaps they will put the LG 43UF680 at 600$ instead of 850$ (it comes with a sound bar worth 250$) or the Sony 43W800c also at 600$ (actual 850$ offer is with a free PS3 lol)
The LG 43UF680 is a 2015-2016 model that just arrived, it has a good response time, HDMI 2.0 but not true UHD as it lacks some sub-par pixels. Actually sold 850$ with a sound bar free.
The Sony 43W800c is also a brand new model 1080P but 3D and with Android OS. Actually sold 850$ with a PS3 free.
The Sony 40R350B is a 1 year old TV like the 40W600B but it's a very basic TV with only 2 HDMI and 1 USB, its input lag is higher than the W600 with 43ms instead of 29ms and it lacks the X Pro chipset that gives better results that is on the W600, as well as it lacks smart features vs the W600.
If I was in the US of A I would have definitely buy a UHD TV as in black Friday prices were really slashed down.

vegetaleb

Banned

Re: Televisions war!

I was in the same situation around two months ago. It is still not worthy to get a 4K. If I had to get a 4K TV, I would wait until they further improve the OLED technology. Until there is a 4K OLED with HDR support and low input lag with a reasonable price.

Two months ago, I got the Bravia 40W600B for $550. It is a FHD and I mainly use it for console gaming. It has a great picture quality and low input lag, around 33ms.

What about motion blur? I have read but good things about this TV though some people claimed blur is not so good and other said it's not noticeable in games. What do you say?

H.S

Member

Re: Televisions war!

The motion blur on this TV isn't bad, but not as good as higher end TVs. There is a feature called "LED Motion Mode" which will significantly improve the blur, but it is useless since it takes away from the brightness and the picture will be too dim. In most cases it won't be noticeable.

Last edited by H.S (December 3 2015)

Tech Guru

Member

Re: Televisions war!

@H.S

OLED Technology on 4K is pretty expensive  , yes it has deep saturation especially blacks but the price is not justifiable and it will not drop soon,  and to me yes 4K  worth it , gaming for 4Ks is very near 2016-2017 , and you can do it now using 908Ti in SLI or Fury X/Fury in Cross Fire , the trick is a local  showroom here (they have wide varieties) , set a specific technical questions (or clarification you are skeptical about):

- Does it Include HDMI 2.0 ?
- What is the Real Panel Refresh  Rate?
- What is the Input Lag?
- Up-scaling Method / Technology?

If you are a serious buyer the room manager will sure answer these specific technical question , and not marketing inflated illustration. Lock on a specific model according to your budget vs performance , technical knowledge , design. Go home re-cross-check (users review, you tube ,  product website , product manual, blogs, forums , & searches). Make your mind , and no regrets in my investment in the LG LED UHD 55" 55UB830T. A Positive ROI.

Last edited by Tech Guru (December 3 2015)