LebGeeks

Seth

Member

Best suited major and uni for programming?

It's been a long time since I've posted anything of use, and now that I'm going to have to apply for universities I've got a question on my mind that I thought would be best suited to be asked here.
I've been thinking about working in the field of software development and programming for some time, but I'm not sure what would be the best choice. I've already asked multiple people but I think that the feedback of fellow lebanese students would be great and sincere, so here we go:

If I'd like to pursue a career in programming and software development, should I choose Computer Engineering or Computer Science as a major? And given that's the case, would LAU or AUB be best for me?

Before you post, here's some background info of what I know/what I fit in:
-I meet the requirements to get accepted in any of the majors of both universities
-I know the difference between CS and CEN. But I was told and shown (in 2 cases) that an engineer could have better job opportunities while doing what a computer scientist does
-LAU's Computer Science program is accredited by ABET while AUB's program is not. This means that American universities (which I plan on going to) would view LAU's program as "better", which in return makes it easier for me to get accepted

Thanks for reading. Hope I'll get some honest answers!

user

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

You should do computer science and not computer engineer. Computer engineer is hardware oriented, you get to learn about transistors and electricity and all that stuff. Computer science is pure programming. Computer engineers in lebanon graduate and end up working in web development in lebanon which is a computer science job. Really ideally what a computer engineer should be doing is building a robot or a satellite to send to space, it's a field where you build hardware. But since our society is shallow they see engineer>non engineer, some people will say it is "better". Computer engineer is 5 years, computer science 3 years, you can do masters in computer science in 2 years, maybe that would put you on the same prestige level  computer engineers do not learn what computer science learn, some people say that engineers can do both programming and hardware, that is just plain wrong. They take a few very basic very non demanding programming courses, that does not put them anywhere near the skills of a programmer.

I graduated from LAU jbeil. I really recommend that university, I was told that LAU jbeil specifically is better than LAU beirut when it comes to computer science. I had some very good teachers, we have a computer science lab. Teachers are very available for office hours and for email questions. In my day the university was far less crowded though, and we were 4 students per class. It has become much much much more crowded since then...

Last edited by user (October 23 2013)

Joe

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

If you plan on working behind a computer improving your technical skills (programming, sysadmin, networking, whatever technical skill), then it doesn't matter. CS will be a little more theoretical (which is a good thing) and engineering will be a little more broad.

If you want to have another job early on in your career like project management, consulting or sales, then it's easier if you go with engineering degree.

If you want to do research and evolve in academic circles (labs, universities, conferences, ...) then it's easier if you get a master's (or a PhD) in computer science.

A few things to remember:

• You're choosing a major, not a job.

• No matter which major you choose, you shouldn't limit yourself to what they're teaching you at uni. You can already start learning something like programming, some networking or database administration. The resources are available online, and for free. Oh, and install a Unix on your laptop now. You'll thank me later.

samer

Admin

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

@user

It is true that an Electrical and Computer Engineering (ECE) program will include power and hardware topics that you would not have to deal with in Computer Science (CS). However, CS is not pure programming, you will have to deal with quite a bit of math.  Programming isn't math.

Saying the [E]CE majors in Lebanon end up working in web development is a blunt generalization. I don't know anyone in my class who is in web development. Furthermore, is calling web development a computer science job really warranted? I think it's quite debatable, considering how engrained engineers usually are in the development of a web application.

I agree that more prestige is associated with the title of "engineer", which can often be misleading, as they might be better suited to do something else. This is more of a cultural thing in the Arab world, where safe occupations like engineering, law and medicine are held up in high regard.

In my alma mater (AUB), engineers were exposed to more core courses that included programming (C++, PIC Assembly, MATLAB and VHDL) than computer scientists, who only need to take Java.

By the way, I am not advocating one program over the other. I am simply making a few clarifications.

I think one should be careful in using generalized statements when they are based solely on one's personal experience. Seth's next few years are at stake here. I think we owe it to him to do an effort to be extra careful when giving out advice.

khatib1

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

First of all computer engineer is 4 years not 5 years in both LAU and AUB. I will talk about AUB's Computer Engineering because I graduated there.
There are 2 majors related to Computer Engineering at AUB:
1.Electrical and Computer Engineering (ECE)
2.Computer and Communication Engineering (CCE)

Courses related to these 2 fields are abbreviated as EECE.

They developed a new program for these 2 majors exactly one year ago which I will talk about. In the first 2 years, you will take exactly the same courses in both majors except for 1 course. ECE will take a power course while CCE students will take a networking course. In the 3rd year and 4th year, you have to decide what to take with 4 restricted courses in each major.

CCE must choose 4 restricted courses in the field of Computer Hardware Systems, Communication and Networking, or Software Systems (max 3 in one field)
while
ECE must choose 4 restricted courses in the field of Computer Hardware Systems, Power and Energy Systems, or Control and Intelligent Systems (max 3 in one field)

So if you are planning to emphasize in software, you should choose CCE and take 3 courses in Software Systems and 1 course in Networking.

You also have 4 unrestricted EECE courses in both majors. You can choose anything related to EECE ( such as the above 5 fields + any Masters Courses in the field of EECE).

You finally have 4 unrestricted courses in both majors. You can anything EECE, math, physics, chemistry, biology (usually biomedical), computer science. So you can take some computer science courses that are not available in EECE.

There are also a couple of lab courses for hand-on applications.

Both of these programs are ABET accredited.

As for AUB, there is a career development center for Engineering students only. So if you get unlucky in getting hired or getting masters in somewhere like the US usually, they will provide you with a large list of jobs with good salary in the Gulf, Lebanon, or to less extent Europe.

khatib1

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

LAU's Computer Science program is accredited by ABET while AUB's program is not. This means that American universities (which I plan on going to) would view LAU's program as "better", which in return makes it easier for me to get accepted

You also have to remember AUB's world rank while LAU is unranked in most sites. So it is a trade-off in the computer science major.

Seth

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

Firstly, I'd like to thank all of you for the well developed posts.

I know what the majors are about, and that Engineering is much more about hardware just as CS has more math and theory in it. But I've known people that have studied Computer Engineering and have ended up working in Software development at respectable multi-nationals; that's what I meant by "an engineer can do the job of a computer scientist". The main reason why I didn't want to go into CEN was because I'm not so interested in hardware, but when I was told that I could get better job opportunities, I started to hesitate seeing as it could impact my future. I honestly don't care about what the biased society thinks when it comes to the prestige related to engineering and universities, and I think we can all agree on that.

But I wanted to ask you guys about this to know what you think would be better for a person that wants to work in software development and use programming languages.
Knowing that I am interested in the above and would like to end up working in that field, what do you think would be the wisest choice to make?

user

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

I think if you love software, you should do computer science. Perhaps an engineer can do both eventually. But the time and energy you'll waste learning about hardware and circuits, you could invest in more math/software.

Computer engineers in LAU took quite different courses than computer science, the beginning programming course was lighter for them, and they did not dig deep into it, hardware courses obviously were lighter for us. We took database administration together and software engineering was available for them.

The good thing in your case, when the time comes and if you are still confused, you can start the first semester with the required math curses and common elective course, First year and maybe half the second if you walk borderline between the majors, you might be able to easily switch without losing much if any courses...

m0ei

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

Sadly the hardware part of computer engineering is pretty weak in Lebanon. Unlike software development, you can't learn electronics for free, you need to go and buy different components, boards, tools, devices, sensors and so on to be able to practice and that's the reason most jump to software in the end. I'd say it's just because you need a pc and you're ready to go. You see from small to large scale software development companies around the world. In hardware, it's harder to launch a small successful startup, it might work for electronics services. You need lots of funding for production, tools, machines and so on... to get your self up and ready and that's why the hardware/electronics companies are the same and well known worldwide.

Keep in mind, you won't find a work in electronics in Lebanon. If you're interested in working abroad, then things might differ.

If you're really interested in software only, just go for a Computer Science degree. Fields such as computer vision, image processing, machine learning, data compression, cryptography and so on..... require solid math skills if you want to work in a research firm or even might be useful if you want to implement your own libraries or your own algorithms.

About the university, both are good to a certain extent, and choosing a university based on ranks and other shit, is nonsense. Don't except to find a job after you graduate if you aren't going to put some side and daily efforts from your side in this field.

You can start from today before tomorrow and don't wait till you get a job or finish university to teach you. There's a lot of courses, tutorials, books and articles online where you can learn more than what a university will or may never teach you in years.

Last edited by m0ei (October 23 2013)

Joe

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

About the university, both are good to a certain extent, and choosing a university based on ranks and other shit, is nonsense. Don't except to find a job after you graduate if you aren't going to put some side and daily efforts from your side in this field.

This.

khatib1

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

About the university, both are good to a certain extent, and choosing a university based on ranks and other shit, is nonsense.

Not the American University Seth might apply to. American Universities use a ranking system (not necessarily the one I mentioned) when accepting their students. Students of a higher ranked university are highly likely going to get accepted over a student of lower ranked university along with other parameters (GPA, skills, individual effort, recommendation,...)

Also the ranking system is based on parameters. These parameters include quality of teaching, quality and number of labs, size of library, student satisfaction, teacher availability,... . So the ranking system gives a rough estimate on the quality of university you are applying to. Otherwise, there is no meaning to make a ranking system.

About the university, both are good to a certain extent, and choosing a university based on ranks and other shit, is nonsense. Don't except to find a job after you graduate if you aren't going to put some side and daily efforts from your side in this field.

I think you missed a sentence between these two sentences. You said that choosing university based on rank is nonsense then jumped to something unrelated to which university to choose (which I couldn't agree more). I would like to know your opinion on how to choose a university.

Last edited by khatib1 (October 24 2013)

xterm

Moderator

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

Here's what I think, despite how illogical it may seem. (P.S.: Applicable in lebanon only)

If I'd like to pursue a career in programming and software development, should I choose Computer Engineering or Computer Science as a major?

1- Start with 2 years in Lebanese University in Roumieh, then pick either of the below:
21- Mechatronics Engineering, minor in CSC.
22- Electrical Engineering, minor in CSC.
23- CSC, minor in GD.

And given that's the case, would LAU or AUB be best for me?

The cheaper one.

user

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

To learn programming well(in a university, not on your own) you need a lab, you need also lab sessions and instructors helping. I know some people in lebanese university, in computer science or chemistry, whatever. They study everything on paper. I know from the programming courses I took that did not have a lab, studying on paper only does not do anything at all. Some of my friends in lebanese university are learning programming on paper and in french! ("le java", "si condition vrai ou faux") code documentation and code itself is english for crying out loud.

Also, in LAU, we have several computer science labs and biology labs and chemistry labs. One student can submit a request and book an entire lab for himself for several days. I  was doing a heuristics research as part of a course in LAU trying to find the shortest way to tour canada. I designed a program that needed around 12 hours to run once, And it runs at 100% cpu capacity, so naturally I needed as many cores an I can get my hands on to get as many results as I can. So I booked a lab. My request was immediately approved. I was given the key to the lab so I could lock it when I exit so no one would mess with the computers, And for 5 days a lab with 14 computers was all mine. It was the only time during my long stay at LAU that I really felt my tuition was buying me something.

The degrees might look all the same from all universities, but the learning process is different. When mobiles started becoming the main thing, LAU started giving a mobile programming course in 2011 where we learned about phonegap and android/java programming(which later became my thing) and c# for iphone(which I did not care for) .

To sum up, the choice of university matters. I don't know anything about AUB or Roumieh exactly, So I am not judging either. Perhaps they are similar. All I am saying these kinds of things are worth asking about when choosing a uni

Last edited by user (October 24 2013)

Seth

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

I think I should mention that I intend on going abroad, so I'm guessing Roumieh is out of the question?
As for the facilities, I've already seen the facilities at LAU, and they're quite nice. I was also told about labs being reserved for some students when needed.
I'm really not questioning the quality of these universities, but rather how much I can get out of the in terms of the international standards of the degrees they offer.

I'd like to thank you all once again for these responses, I think I'm leaning back towards Computer Science. However, what do you think would weigh more: AUB's international rank or LAU's ABET accredited CS program?

Ayman

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

If you put enough effort and dedication can become a good programmer, the main requirement it to be passionate about what you do and act upon that. University degrees alone are irrelevant, classes can be useful but are not enough, not even enough for entry level jobs. Effort and dedication not for a month, a year or a couple of years but that of a lifetime. It has to consume you.

If you really want a career in programming, I suggest you pick up a good book and start reading then starting playing with code and building things, that's the best way to learn. Repeat that over your lifetime.

All those titles, accreditation, degrees and course labels are just noise. Learning is between you and the machine, and being around the right people.

khatib1

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

@user you are posting things that are available in any international American university. Imagine AUB not having a lab.

Some people here are posting things unrelated to this thread and summarized in these two questions(written in bold in the original post):
- Choosing major between Computer Engineering and Computer Science (He decided on CS)
- Choosing university between AUB and LAU (which concluded with this question what weigh's more AUB's international rank or LAU's ABET accredited CS program)

If someone wants to debate about the other topics, he/she should move them to another thread.

Last edited by khatib1 (October 24 2013)

Seth

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

@user you are posting things that are available in any international American university. Imagine AUB not having a lab.

Some people here are posting things unrelated to this thread and summarized in these two questions(written in bold in the original post):
- Choosing major between Computer Engineering and Computer Science (He decided on CS)
- Choosing university between AUB and LAU (which concluded with this question what weigh's more AUB's international rank or LAU's ABET accredited CS program)

If someone wants to debate about the other topics, he/she should move them to another thread.

This sums things up pretty well.
I think I'm more or less well informed about the majors as well as the universities themselves. I'm not looking for the best option to tell myself "oh I'll be a better programmer", but rather to know what would allow me to achieve such a goal in the best way possible.
In the end, graduating from X place with titles doesn't mean you're better, but it sadly does mean you have higher chances of getting accepted/hired somewhere else (which is what I'm worried about)

Joe

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

In the end, graduating from X place with titles doesn't mean you're better, but it sadly does mean you have higher chances of getting accepted/hired somewhere else (which is what I'm worried about)

That's only partially true. Crappy recruiters will care about the title of your university. It's a sad truth. But usually, crappy recruiters can only offer crappy jobs.

Interesting jobs are usually screened by good recruiters. They won't care about the prestige of your school or your grades, but will care about your raw skills. Publishing applications, understanding technical subtleties and, probably more important than anything else, good communication skills, will give you access to much more interesting challenges.

Source: My job kicks all sorts of ass. A lot of my coworkers never went to college.

I think I should mention that I intend on going abroad, so I'm guessing Roumieh is out of the question?

Wrong. I live in France. Most of the Lebanese software guys I meet here come from Roumieh. Both in academic circles and in the industry. Roumieh's a kick ass school.

Honestly, if you want to take away one thing from this thread: You may excel (or fail) no matter which university you choose. It only depends on the amount of efforts you're willing to put.

My advice is to care more about practical aspects, like how much does it cost, how far is it from home, how many people do you already know there, etc etc etc.

Kassem

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

Honestly, if you want to take away one thing from this thread: You may excel (or fail) no matter which university you choose. It only depends on the amount of efforts you're willing to put.

This.

I say it's a total waste of money to spend thousands of USD on AUB or LAU tuitions for a major that you can easily learn on your own. Go for the Lebanese University and you won't regret it. You can even spend the tuition money on buying a nice car; that would be a better way of spending that money.

raja

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I'd like to weigh in a bit.

First, a nitpick, @user, iPhone dev is in ObjC which is nothing like C#.

Second, @Seth, I guess your question can be broken down into two questions. One is the choice of university and the other is the choice of major between CCE/ECE and CS.

I personally attended LAU Byblos and studied CCE. So that's the only thing I can speak of with any kind of authority but I have talked to and met quite a few people from AUB studying CS or ECE.

On the choice of university, LAU(at least in Byblos, Beirut campus should generally be avoided for both CS and CCE) provides you with much better access to professors. They are way less distant and detached from their students than their AUB counterparts. While that, in itself, is a very good thing and definitely something that helped me in many ways, I'd still say you should probably study at AUB because of another factor that I don't think anyone has mentioned in this thread yet and that's the quality of other students around you. LAU has very very few really good students whom you could learn from, partner on projects with, and generally form friendships with other technically minded people. Class quality suffers immensely from this as professors can only go as fast as the class will allow(I mean they can just ignore the fact that 90% of the students aren't following but they generally don't). I went to LAU on a dependant's grant(so it was definitely cheaper as xterm mentioned) but that's pretty much the only reason I went there instead of AUB.

On your second question, I'd say that if you have at least the capacity to tolerate hardware courses, go for CCE/ECE and not CS but take all your electives in graduate-level software courses(if at AUB, any course given by Louai Bazzi gets my recommendation). Also, join the team for the ACM programming competition(s). I say this because some hardware courses definitely give you a certain amount of perspective you wouldn't obtain any other way. The courses I learned from and enjoyed the most during my time in university were things like VLSI design, Embedded Systems, High-Performance Computer Architecture, etc... Even though my true passion is in software and I now work at a software company(doing iOS dev for now but should also be doing some python/nodejs server work in the not so far future) I'd say those things were definitely worth it.

You can learn CS with just a computer, you can't get access to the labs and equipment to do embedded systems programming outside of university(at least not easily or cheaply, especially in Lebanon). As for any things a CS major could give you that a CCE/ECE major wouldn't in terms of software or algorithms knowledge, that will be more than offset by the technical electives and (especially) the ACM competitions.

Also, if you find that you enjoy the subset of CS that is algorithm design, start taking part in google code jam. It's simply awesome.

Sir_fz

Member

Re: Best suited major and uni for programming?

Haven't read all replies but just wanted to add my 2 cents. I personally majored in Computer Science mainly because I had extreme passion for programming (scripting at the time) and huge hatred for anything hardware-related. I was lucky to have the opportunity to work with Electronics engineers and personally delve into lower-level programming on MCUs (which is not taught for Computer Science students btw). Needless to say, I find the low-level knowledge of hardware architecture and how the Software interacts with the Hardware is extremely valuable for any good Software and Hardware engineer alike. My point is, I think a Computer Engineering or a Computer Science graduate are both equally capable of pursuing a Software development career, easy (but there's a compromise in the material you're taught which you must seek outside). From personal experience, I found that my Electronics engineering colleagues had very high potential in excelling in software programming more than most Computer Science graduates that I know - for all that matters.

As for which University, can't really argue on that as I think it doesn't really matter. But between LAU and AUB, I'd go for AUB (I've tutored an AUB CS student and I found their program pretty challenging - besides the reputation advantage).