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#26 October 28 2019

potato
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

nuclearcat wrote:

Sorry, but hong kong is absolutely wrong example. They keep destructing everything around and rioting, and while business owners in HK/China can rely on insurance and state support, here the owners of the destroyed stores sooner or later will simply pick up weapons and go shoot protesters who have such habits.
Also, in HK anyone who speaks out with different opinion is getting beaten up, and his business is destroyed. Can you even imagine what it is to live in an atmosphere of terror?
Just watch https://twitter.com/liamstone_19 , it is pro-mainland account, but he supply enough credible proof how violent is this protest and how biased is media to cover it.

Yea we lived that feeling when hizbollah decided to riot in the streets not long ago against beirutis. Anyway that is not what im trying to suggest. I gave a good example that protest can be done only during the weekend. So we can give good examples for the protestors to follow.

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#27 October 28 2019

Johnaudi
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

potato wrote:

Yea we lived that feeling when hizbollah decided to riot in the streets not long ago against beirutis. Anyway that is not what im trying to suggest. I gave a good example that protest can be done only during the weekend. So we can give good examples for the protestors to follow.

Bad idea, the country will no longer be pressured at all, making it furthermore indifferent for them. Same goes for why we don't want the roads open.

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#28 October 28 2019

nuclearcat
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

Johnaudi wrote:
potato wrote:

Yea we lived that feeling when hizbollah decided to riot in the streets not long ago against beirutis. Anyway that is not what im trying to suggest. I gave a good example that protest can be done only during the weekend. So we can give good examples for the protestors to follow.

Bad idea, the country will no longer be pressured at all, making it furthermore indifferent for them. Same goes for why we don't want the roads open.

Thats very wrong and shortsighted assumption. In fact, chaos and poverty are the best breeding ground for various armed groups.
All production, high-tech companies are likely to fail deliver and fail to pay their bills for supply chain. Especially those who work for export. And I think you understand very well that to take place in the international market you have to work long and painfully, but you can lose your niche very quickly. And this is jobs for students, who will become freshgrads soon, and those rare hi-tech jobs - will disappear completely.
I have already seen this in Ukraine, most of industrial production was closed or moved outside , even programming outsourcing companies calculated the risks and it was cheaper for them to buy office in nearby countries, visas for workers, than to bear all the risks of the revolution.
But now in Ukraine we have armed neo-Nazi groups (ex: Azov, recently US congress discussed to put them in terror list) that openly refuse to end the conflict in the east and threaten the president, and where tens of thousands of young people flocking in to join.

P.S. If you think, "well, we are of course different," no, you are not. There are recipes for success to look, and they were doomed to succeed from first sight. Partially - Georgia, absolute success - Armenia. You do not have what they had - a single "unity" leader with advisors, clear plan of action how to FIX things.

Last edited by nuclearcat (October 28 2019)

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#29 October 28 2019

Metalloy
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

hi everyone,
I skimmed through the comments and I will try to highlight objectivly some points and add my opinions to the mix.

lets first see the pros of the movement:
1) for the first time since 2005 you such level of unity and even better, only lebanese flags are raised
2) for the first time politicians feel pressured and threatened by the people
3) Some cities managed to change the wrong identity it carried for so long; the main one being Tripoli
4) the demands raised are by the people and for the people, and all demands are just and the right for every lebanese to have them fulfilled

Cons:
1) the demands seem to be all over, agreeing on a list of critical demands with certain timetable is a must, the rest of reforms will follow in due time
2) some demands, and one in particular, is just wishful thinking imo, see Lebanese situation is unique by having a major force present next to the lebanese army, protesting will not bring such force down; Realistic goals should be specified, drifting away in dreams may end up in losing all momentum acheived by the movement
3) some of the numbers i keep hearing are flat out lies, I fully agree with the demands but stating wrong numbers annoys me, and that include the number of protestors claimed, guys, open google maps and calculate surface area of every major square where protests are taking place in sq. m, add them up and multiply by a generous 4 person per sq. m, you'll see that it never crossed 200K, saying 2 million is just flat out wrong. Same goes for the humam chain, it just didnt work, it was a stupid proposal to begin with and it failed yet i keep seeing videos caliming its success.
4)i accept that the goverment should be replaced, but insisiting on it fall right now may be devastating, instead the movement should give its comments on the suggested list of reforms, agree to it with changes added if any, clear the roads and stay only in squares in numbers as a reminder that they can call for a mother of all protest if the gov fail to abide with the list of reforms, and if all is good, when new elections are due, make the real change there.

I really hope to see real changes as we can all agree that the current situation aint sustainable anymore.

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#30 October 29 2019

dsoftware.king
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

Metalloy wrote:

hi everyone,
I skimmed through the comments and I will try to highlight objectivly some points and add my opinions to the mix.

lets first see the pros of the movement:
1) for the first time since 2005 you such level of unity and even better, only lebanese flags are raised
2) for the first time politicians feel pressured and threatened by the people
3) Some cities managed to change the wrong identity it carried for so long; the main one being Tripoli
4) the demands raised are by the people and for the people, and all demands are just and the right for every lebanese to have them fulfilled

Cons:
1) the demands seem to be all over, agreeing on a list of critical demands with certain timetable is a must, the rest of reforms will follow in due time
2) some demands, and one in particular, is just wishful thinking imo, see Lebanese situation is unique by having a major force present next to the lebanese army, protesting will not bring such force down; Realistic goals should be specified, drifting away in dreams may end up in losing all momentum acheived by the movement
3) some of the numbers i keep hearing are flat out lies, I fully agree with the demands but stating wrong numbers annoys me, and that include the number of protestors claimed, guys, open google maps and calculate surface area of every major square where protests are taking place in sq. m, add them up and multiply by a generous 4 person per sq. m, you'll see that it never crossed 200K, saying 2 million is just flat out wrong. Same goes for the humam chain, it just didnt work, it was a stupid proposal to begin with and it failed yet i keep seeing videos caliming its success.
4)i accept that the goverment should be replaced, but insisiting on it fall right now may be devastating, instead the movement should give its comments on the suggested list of reforms, agree to it with changes added if any, clear the roads and stay only in squares in numbers as a reminder that they can call for a mother of all protest if the gov fail to abide with the list of reforms, and if all is good, when new elections are due, make the real change there.

I really hope to see real changes as we can all agree that the current situation aint sustainable anymore.

You must be kidding, agree on reforms? What reforms?!

The reforms are just a bad lie. The only thing they will do from the list is selling the profitable sectors such as the telecom sector.

And you know what, we are already in a devastating position, and the reason behind that is the same party suggesting the reforms.

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#31 October 29 2019

Metalloy
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

i did say whatever points that need to be edited let it be done before agreeing on the reforms.

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#32 October 29 2019

dsoftware.king
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

Metalloy wrote:

i did say whatever points that need to be edited let it be done before agreeing on the reforms.

would you do a gentleman's agrreement with someone who has a long history of lying over and over and over ...

do you trust this ruling team? by any means? and to do any reforms?

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#33 October 29 2019

nuclearcat
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

As a foreigner, I am forced to skip too political points (this is the law), I will only comment on technical ones.

Metalloy wrote:

hi everyone,
1) for the first time since 2005 you such level of unity and even better, only lebanese flags are raised

If we talk about unity, i am observing strength of Lebanese unity each day. When it come to fighting common enemy, helping poor and similar stuff - Lebanese very united. It was never a problem to see it, and this is where Lebanese stronger than other nations.
But, when if comes to the division of limited goodies(chairs in govt, power and influence, even just good jobs), problem & division begins. Its not Lebanese fault, just all humans the same.

Metalloy wrote:

3) Some cities managed to change the wrong identity it carried for so long; the main one being Tripoli

Sorry, but identity can't be changed in few days.
And, anyway, as a foreigner, I never had doubts that Tripoli is a wonderful city with wonderful people. The problem is not city identity at all, but that city is tormented by poverty.

Metalloy wrote:

4) the demands raised are by the people and for the people, and all demands are just and the right for every lebanese to have them fulfilled

These requirements are captain obvious demands. Everyone knows about them for a long time, the question is which of them to solve first, with limited resources.
And by the way, voicing of problems does not say at all about the scale of these problems and what methods of solving these problems are acceptable.
For example, education. Maybe enough free primary education, and protesters want subsidies for education at Harvard University? Difficulty is not to hear the problem of free education, but to find a solution that have acceptable budget and suit most of those who want it.

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#34 October 29 2019

Metalloy
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

@Dsoftware.king

I think you didnt read my post carefully.
I dont trust the ruling team, but I also dont trust that going all in against such party is going to lead to positive results.
reaching a power equilbrium is good,staying in the squares as a warning sign that if the reforms list is not followed all hell will break loose; that is a proper standoff.
Trying to eliminate the ruling party is an over the top move and is not going to work/ the opposing party is a powerhouse that just cemented its local and regional influence by winning the syrian war. riots wont bring them down, only acts of war will, and that my friend will send the country to the abyss.
This is reality, it sucks, but it is what it is, so, in my opinion, the movement should have a reality check and work on from there.

My heart is with the movement, and for it to be successful, realistic expectaions are a must.

Thank you

Last edited by Metalloy (October 29 2019)

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#35 October 29 2019

dsoftware.king
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

Metalloy wrote:

@Dsoftware.king

I think you didnt read my post carefully.
I dont trust the ruling team, but I also dont trust that going all in against such party is going to lead to positive results.
reaching a power equilbrium is good,staying in the squares as a warning sign that if the reforms list is not followed all hell will break loose; that is a proper standoff.
Trying to eliminate the ruling party is an over the top move and is not going to work/ the opposing party is a powerhouse that just cemented its local and regional influence by winning the syrian war. riots wont bring them down, only acts of war will, and that my friend will send the country to the abyss.
This is reality, it sucks, but it is what it is, so, in my opinion, the movement should have a reality check and work on from there.

My heart is with the movement, and for it to be successful, realistic expectaions are a must.

Thank you

totally agree about being realistic. Now I don't think war is an option, and all the talk about war is to intimidate people.

the problem is that the ruling party isn't giving anything to the people after all what happened in the last 11 days. backing up now will only lead to dragging a lot of protestors to courts. as for the alleged reforms, it's all lies. we've seen the same speech before parliament elections, each party promised to fight corruption yet they did nothing but to embrace it.

its the governemnt move now, and they are responsible in the first place.

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#36 October 29 2019

eWizzard
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

6uG4g8L.jpg

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#37 October 31 2019

infiniteloop
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

I hope we will have real technocrats as ministers, not a bunch of actors and movies producers just because they are famous, we want solutions not show off

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#38 November 1 2019

AVOlio
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

I hate to say it, but this whole thing is dying.
I don't know who decided to stop closing roads and protesting when the PM resigned, but this entire thing killed it.
Less and less people started showing for protests, i guess the resignation of the PM satisfied them somehow.

The only hope remaining will be this weekend.
If this weekend shows us the same amount of people that we saw during the first 2-3 days of the protests, in Beirut, then i guess there is still hope.
But if we don't see that amount of people in Beirut this weekend, then au revoir monsieur le revolution.

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#39 November 1 2019

Johnaudi
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

He did the first step, they're letting the country breathe for a few days until they set up the "7oukoume".

Last edited by Johnaudi (November 1 2019)

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#40 November 1 2019

VincentKeyboard
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

AVOlio wrote:

I hate to say it, but this whole thing is dying.
I don't know who decided to stop closing roads and protesting when the PM resigned, but this entire thing killed it.
Less and less people started showing for protests, i guess the resignation of the PM satisfied them somehow.

The only hope remaining will be this weekend.
If this weekend shows us the same amount of people that we saw during the first 2-3 days of the protests, in Beirut, then i guess there is still hope.
But if we don't see that amount of people in Beirut this weekend, then au revoir monsieur le revolution.

Yes, I was proud when the protests happened. I was pleasantly surprised. Now I am disappointed.

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#41 November 3 2019

Tech Guru
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

Revolution Revived.

Changing the cabinet from the same Parliament that assigns ministers based on the parliamentary blocks sizes ,  is simply a bite to deflate the whole revolution against a 30 years of corruption and war lords taking in charge of authority. They are calling for a " technocrat cabinet" ,  a technocrat minister pushed by his parliamentary block will work for their interests. Again as if we are buying fish in water. The same parliamentary block will always call their ministers to execute plans to safe their interests and mask their corruptions. Technocrat or no ,  different or same names ... same issue.

Last edited by Tech Guru (November 3 2019)

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#42 November 4 2019

jsaade
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

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#43 November 5 2019

Tech Guru
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

jsaade wrote:

That is indeed hurtful & ironically laughable. The corrupted authority is throwing all its paper to stay alive. Hovering in the horizon about a cabinet that constitutes from   24 ministers of techno-political backgrounds. Even the technocrats have the embedded umbrella of the corrupted political blocks that assign them and work for their interests. Which add  further to the insult some major corrupted faces will be presented again.

Moral of the story , they do not care about people and their  screams to have a better life. 30 years of corruption that is spread like the octopus tentacles in every area elusively trying to shut down the screams with repetitive maneuvers such as: giving orders to the army ,  spreading & covering their thugs to hit and run the protesters ,  riding the wave bygiving the perception that they are with the people scream.

Last edited by Tech Guru (November 5 2019)

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#44 November 5 2019

jsaade
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

I think there are a lot of mis information in this image.

-> Deputies do not name or agree on PM.
-> President names PM based on meetings (advisory only). He can name without them.
PM does not have to agree on government with President. PM can create any government but President has to announce it. His only job is announcing it with him. He cannot enforce any ministers.

http://www.presidency.gov.lb/Arabic/Pre … ution.aspx

Last edited by jsaade (November 5 2019)

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#45 November 5 2019

infiniteloop
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

I am afraid this revolution is going into the ''gilets jaunes'' of France, they started strong then lost popularity by closing roads and cities too long, then slowly they disappeared attacked by the Macron's friends on TV and newspapers with fake news.
The 'bassilists'' are throwing tons of fake news to make people doubt from this revolution honesty

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#46 November 5 2019

VincentKeyboard
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

Because politicians like himself don't care for the country at all. They are smart enough to know how horrible they are for the country. They all do with no exceptions. They simply feel it is justifiable to sacrifice the country for their positions and, of course, whatever benefits they get from said positions. And the people can't afford to always complain because the alternative may always be worse and we all have better things to do including mitigating damage caused by politicians.

Last edited by VincentKeyboard (November 5 2019)

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#47 November 6 2019

xerxes
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

infiniteloop wrote:

I am afraid this revolution is going into the ''gilets jaunes'' of France, they started strong then lost popularity by closing roads and cities too long, then slowly they disappeared attacked by the Macron's friends on TV and newspapers with fake news.
The 'bassilists'' are throwing tons of fake news to make people doubt from this revolution honesty


it is our responsibilty to keep it alive. otherwise we should be ready for what's coming, the worst is coming

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#48 November 6 2019

rolf
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

xerxes wrote:

it is our responsibilty to keep it alive. otherwise we should be ready for what's coming, the worst is coming

I disagree.
Besides this sounds like vague fear to me, I am not convinced.

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#49 November 8 2019

xerxes
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

rolf wrote:
xerxes wrote:

it is our responsibilty to keep it alive. otherwise we should be ready for what's coming, the worst is coming

I disagree.
Besides this sounds like vague fear to me, I am not convinced.


what is vague fear?

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#50 November 8 2019

rolf
Member

Re: 17th of October Lebanon Revolution

xerxes wrote:
rolf wrote:
xerxes wrote:

it is our responsibilty to keep it alive. otherwise we should be ready for what's coming, the worst is coming

I disagree.
Besides this sounds like vague fear to me, I am not convinced.


what is vague fear?

It means fear without a clearly defined object.
You say the worst is coming, but what exactly would that be?

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