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#1 May 25

TigerFox
Member

Learning About Investment And Trading

Hello everyone. While going through the internet I read about financial advice topics and such , and there is always an advice to invest in stock , real estates , forex , ... Thing is , I know very little about such topics , but I am really open to learn new stuff and take the time to grow myself.

Now that I don't sound too dumb , can I trust the internet on the information it gives me while learning about investment skills and advices ? Do some places sell me advice just to use a method or another ? Have you ever tried investing ? Also because I am currently in Lebanon , does it affect me in any way ? Just some broad questions right now to get myself a general idea. I would appreciate anyone sharing the experience if you were invested or currently is

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#2 May 25

Elied
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

Mandatory disclaimer that I am not a financial advisor so do not take my words to heart.
First thing about learning about this stuff online is that the vast majority of it is US centric. If you google for financial advice every link on the first page will tell you to "max your 401k contribution" which is a plan provided by the US government and does not apply to anyone outside the US.
Another point, which relates to the first sentence of my post, do not take any advice from the internet to heart. This applies to everything, not just financial matters, but the stakes are higher here. If you had invested all your savings in some obscure crypto currency because of a post on Reddit then you stand to lose a lot.
Finally, being in Lebanon limits a lot of your options, unless you have a sizeable amount of cash to work with, as the finance sector is not very welcoming or developed on the low end but is a lot more mature when dealing with larger sums of money. Best bet you have is through traditional savings accounts in a big bank with the highest "feyde" you can find.

Don't let this detter you from learning about all of it though. You never know when the knowledge might prove useful.
Good luck!

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#3 May 26

Johnaudi
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

Never, ever start trading straight with a real account. No matter how confident you may be, there are so many psychological events which WILL make you lose money. (Including greed, doubt and despair)
Make sure you learn how the market works alongside some technical analysis. (Includes news analysis etc)

I would not call it gambling because going long term is more of an investment.
If you're going with forex (which is often the easier option), make sure you understand the currency pair's politics well enough to invest. If you're going with company stocks/funds, you must study the company's steps very carefully.

And as stated before, Lebanon is very limited in this topic due to several reasons, one being the monopoly of certain certified trading platforms, second is the fact that we have a poor financial rating (denying our registration to known online markets), and third, commission based brokers which tell you to short instead of buying and vice versa so they take a commission on your loss.

First step: Learn how to trade, never go in without fully understanding every aspect of the game. Everything will work against your favor in such a field, it's Murphy's law.
Second step: Create a demo account, get an expert advisor (a real person or a program) to help initiate and stop your trades, try copy trading if necessary but that does not guarantee profit. This step may take years for you to be confident enough to open your first real account.
Third step: Real account in, diversify, safest is long term but if you're still young in age (say a youth) you are able to take some risk by day trading.

Even a full time trader does not make his money from the market but by his daytime job or his businesses, do not quit your job thinking the market will bring you millions, in fact less than 10% of traders beat the market (not necessarily by much) every year.
Note that the Lebanese banks interest rate are considerably high, might as well place them safely there. (Most market beaters don't even make as much as what our banks' interests give us!)

There are so many aspects that I cannot cover in just this post, but most importantly, never go in without understanding every aspect of trading (and of course, its risks). Leveraging may be a "get rich quick" scheme, but it's also a get bankrupt even quicker if you mess up.

Last edited by Johnaudi (May 26)

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#4 May 26

TigerFox
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

Thank you guys for the input , I really appreciate it.

Everything you mentioned , I read on internet , except for the Lebanon part of course. It is good to be reassured , especially in those kind of topics.

I am just 20 years old , still in university , and I really don't find people who are knowledgeable in those fields. My goal is long term , I don't have alot of money to put in the bank for the interest rate , so really I don't have much to lose but experience it , because as much as I read and learn , I'll never understand it well unless I dip in. I'll start with a demo account like you John and everyone suggests. And whenever I feel like I have a much better grasp of it , be 2 or 3 years , I'll start with real money. I'll never invest in money I can't afford to lose , so from now till whenever I want to get it real , I will be saving very little for that reason.

I do have another passport , I am not really counting on Lebanon forever to be honest , but might as well start from now.

You seem really knowledgeable , Johnaudi. Have you tried investing before ? Do you know anyone who is currently invested while here in Lebanon ?

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#5 May 26

Johnaudi
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

I've had prior experience especially in crypto a few years back. (I was very lucky when I started due to the crypto boom)
The majority of my surroundings who invest are not doing so financially well (even though they are well cultivated in the field), and are in fact losing some money.
The minority who is actually making some cash are not making it out of investments but by teaching how to invest! Many technical analysts will tell you "buy X it's going to go up!" whilst not investing in it themselves, they gain a commission on your profit (if they're a private broker) or on your loss (if they're the company's commissioner). These people are not necessarily any good at trading, but make money by hitting 1 out of 10 predications.
And very very few and well known people made millions, but most had millions in the first place (which tends to cover up your leverage, making it safer for you not to get bankrupt)

I suggest you know your markets first.
We live in a bull's market (a market that has the tendency to go up on the long run - company stock wise)
Know what market you want to get into, each market philosophy differs from the other.
* Forex is the knowledge of countries against others with a political and economical point of view.
* Stocks/Indexes/Hedge Funds... are based on worldwide companies registered in the their respective markets. If you love technology for example, invest in a technological company that you think will strive. (Pharmaceutical companies are the hit now, if you know a pharmacist following up global events, ask for advice! *cough* marijuana *cough*)
* Options/CFDs, this is fairly a guessing game, you make a contract with your broker that a currency pair or a stock will do something, and if you hit that correctly, you'll get a percentage or lose your cash. For example, I'll put 1000$ that bitcoin will be above 20,000$ in 2 weeks, the broker offers me a 600% return on that because, to him, this seems highly unlikely. (But if that actually does not happen, I'll lose my 1000$)

If you're interested in the last pin point, I highly recommend reading a book called "The Black Swan" by Nassim Taleb, one of the world's best options traders, and to your luck, he's Lebanese!

You're only 20 years old is not a reason to procrastinate such an opportunity to learn, I became 21 a few days ago :)

Wish you best of luck brother!

Note: If you're always winning in the market means something is wrong, expect several losses before starting to secure profit, I personally lost several thousands before starting to make a few hundreds; eventually learned to secure these few hundreds every time, compensating my losses and limiting my profits (aka, try not to be greedy). This results in decent profit over time.

Last edited by Johnaudi (May 26)

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#6 May 26

TigerFox
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

Thanks alot John  I didn't expect someone to have such knowledge about investment in Lebanon to be very honest , and more , you are very young as well ! Thanks for the wishes , I wish you too as well and everyone the best of luck in this country.

I probably have more questions but I think that is enough for now. I'll find answers later when I get into it more. Everything you said is new to me , so really I am no where ready to ask more without knowing basic info like that

Cheers budd :*

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#7 May 26

Johnaudi
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

There are far more people better than me in this industry that live blocks away from me, don't underestimate the people in this country so much :)
My fellow LebGeeks and I are here to help, so ask away!

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#8 May 26

Elitism Guru
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

Johnaudi wrote:

There are far more people better than me in this industry that live blocks away from me, don't underestimate the people in this country so much :)
My fellow LebGeeks and I are here to help, so ask away!

Lebanon is a bunch of blocks anyways. ;)

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#9 May 27

samer
Administrator

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

First, invest in yourself
  • Acquire marketable skills

  • Build a side business while you study

  • Cultivate meaningful relationships with friends and family

  • Move your body, every single day. Sports and work outs. I know you're 20, but your 30 year old self will thank you

  • Read widely and frequently. I prefer books because they generally have a better signal to noise ratio

Second, keep it simple
  • Put money on the side often

  • Invest it in things that tend to preserve their value over time

Third, a word of caution
  • Don't buy stuff you don't truly need

  • Buy stuff you don't truly need, if they make you and your loved ones happy (just make sure that they do)

  • Don't invest in things you don't understand. Just because people around you made money on crypto doesn't mean you will. Same goes for stocks, forex, etc.

  • Don't get greedy, lots of people will exploit your greed to sell you snake oil

  • Against some of the advice above, don't spend too much time paper trading. Losing $100 in the market will teach you much more about the psychology of trading than simulated trading will in a year.

  • Don't stick all your money in a Lebanese bank, no matter the interest rate, it's imprudent at this stage

  • Beware of the Lira. It's OK to use it for day to day transactions, but make sure the bulk of your savings is in USD (I realize this is getting harder by the day)

PS: Someone mentioned Taleb up there. I would recommend reading Antifragile rather than The Black Swan. Much more insightful (beyond finance) and Taleb is less pompous in his writing.

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#10 May 27

rolf
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

You say you intend on emigrating.
If you intend on finding a job abroad, how does trading fit in your experience on your CV?

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#11 May 27

TigerFox
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

Thanks Samer for the input. It means alot to me because it is like a direct advice to me , unlike reading similar advices elsewhere on internet.

I have alot of spare time right now I can probably start reading with the books you and John mentioned. I study CS in LU :/ so yea I got alot of time right now

I don't know exactly if you are asking me , Rolf , but yes I do have a Brazilian passport. And I am not sure how does investing/trading experience affect my CV for later job applications , but I think it will be a good fit especially if I already passed the unexperienced state and started to make the small consistent profits. Otherwise I don't really know :$

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#12 May 27

Salloum
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

Always nice to read your posts Samer. However regarding your point about sticking all your cash in the bank, I believe it’s not as bad as people think. In fact, I see this as an opportunity to gain a large return for a minimal risk. I know things seem bleak, but think about it in the simplest of terms: if you have a cash cow, do you ever let it die? Lebanon is their cash cow, and they’ll do whatever it takes to keep it alive. The lira is risky, but USD isn’t. You can still get an 8% rate compounded monthly at leading banks. Probably 10% elsewhere.

Edit; I don’t mean to belittle the current situation- the likely scenario in all of this is an inevitable devaluation of the LBP. However this talk of bankruptcy sounds a little ridiculous to me when 60% of the debt is in our currency and we can literally print it. Yes it’ll be a disaster, but at least the state won’t fall. Bankruptcy is usually a decision a state takes for whatever reason, not something that just happens

Last edited by Salloum (May 27)

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#13 May 27

dp0001
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

trading forex, stocks etc is not easy, and it's not for everyone. there are some skills you need do develop. successful traders have a certain psychological profile that allows them to be constantly profitable; that should be studied -
Find yourself a good teacher

that being said, -most- of the trading today is done by HFT algorithms, and if you're in CS, you probably have some skills to code and create your own algorithm that will trade for you. but again it's a david vs goliath situation and it should be done very carefully

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#14 May 27

rolf
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

What I'm saying TigerFox is that generally when you immigrate to a new country you will have to find employment. You will want to do something now which will help you find employment after you immigrate.

I don't know your situation - maybe you have parents there that will support you until you figure it out, or maybe you want to go into finance or what to prove that you are entrepreneurial and can " make money" in which case this is relevant experience.

However if you want to do something else in the future - for example a full time programming job, then trading is not usually seen like very interesting experience (except if you apply for a trading or related company).

Surely better then nothing, of course, but there are better things to do maybe.

My philosophy is that it is nice to make a few hundred dollars here and there, but for me I am more interested in long term investment into myself.

If you want to do this, then by all means do it, it is a good time to experiment.

Just recommending based on my broad outlook, that you think about the topic.

I wish you well in any case.

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#15 May 27

TigerFox
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

Wow thank you all for the answers and support.

I do understand it is not an easy process , it will take time and the will to constatntly learn about it. I am really aiming for long term investment , which is in general the safest and most reliable way.

I am taking the advice from here and from the internet to start something like this at a young age , not only I will have much more time to learn but also experience it at least even if I don't make it or don't really find time for it later on. What dp0001 mentioned about creating an algorithm to help trading is something I would like to try , maybe create and sell ? I don't know :$

After all , I searched in here before posting originally about this topic , but I didn't find anything. May it be a future guide for someone who has the same question and doubts in mind. Your support is really overwhelming , thank you all again

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#16 May 28

Johnaudi
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

TigerFox wrote:

What dp0001 mentioned about creating an algorithm to help trading is something I would like to try , maybe create and sell ? I don't know :$

In fact, this is what I'm doing right now for some extra cash! I would post a link here, but you can search for it online under the name of "Renko Breakout Expert", I have a new one coming out soon as well!

Also, CS at LU? What year are you in currently? Are you in the French or the English section?

Last edited by Johnaudi (May 28)

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#17 May 28

TigerFox
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

Johnaudi wrote:

In fact, this is what I'm doing right now for some extra cash! I would post a link here, but you can search for it online under the name of "Renko Breakout Expert", I have a new one coming out soon as well!

Also, CS at LU? What year are you in currently? Are you in the French or the English section?

Okay that's good to know  But may I ask if it is worth the effort for the profit you are making ?

Yea I am studying CS as LU  , English section , Nabatiye tho. I am 2nd year in the 1st year ;-; I was one of those "Why do I need Math for CS" type of student , so I failed most Math courses but passed both of the Informatic courses with a mark over 90 , never attened any lectures , I just already knew everything :')

I don't know if I should be studying right now , things are bad man. Can't wait to get to next year. I already know some of data structure and algorithm classes. I love CS :$

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#18 May 28

samer
Administrator

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

Salloum wrote:

In fact, I see this as an opportunity to gain a large return for a minimal risk (...) this talk of bankruptcy sounds a little ridiculous to me when 60% of the debt is in our currency and we can literally print it

For me personally the risk is not minimal, because I factor capital controls into my threat model. I think of liquidity as my primary lifeline. So yes, you're less likely to lose it from a bank going bust, but what good is your money if you can't withdraw it and use it as you see fit?

I imagine the central bank will try to protect every last dollar in its reserve to maintain the peg (Salameh has been quite vocal about it). Devaluation is a measure of last resort, and I think we will see capital controls on the dollar happen first. In fact, from what I've been hearing, they already are informally in place. Try to withdraw a few thousand dollars from your bank account in cash and see what happens.

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#19 May 28

nosense
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

samer wrote:
Salloum wrote:

In fact, I see this as an opportunity to gain a large return for a minimal risk (...) this talk of bankruptcy sounds a little ridiculous to me when 60% of the debt is in our currency and we can literally print it

For me personally the risk is not minimal, because I factor capital controls into my threat model. I think of liquidity as my primary lifeline. So yes, you're less likely to lose it from a bank going bust, but what good is your money if you can't withdraw it and use it as you see fit?

I imagine the central bank will try to protect every last dollar in its reserve to maintain the peg (Salameh has been quite vocal about it). Devaluation is a measure of last resort, and I think we will see capital controls on the dollar happen first. In fact, from what I've been hearing, they already are informally in place. Try to withdraw a few thousand dollars from your bank account in cash and see what happens.

where do you suggest we go with our money ? a safe at home ?

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#20 May 28

Salloum
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

The current priority is keeping the peg going but that can change very quickly. You’re right about the liquidity issues but they won’t go on forever. I work at a bank and we are still processing LBP to USD operations on a daily basis. You can still withdraw up to 50k a month in cash, but we re applying a per mil fee on cash withdrawals. I think people are over-panicking. The media tends to dramatize things in this country.

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#21 May 29

sero
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

Salloum wrote:

The current priority is keeping the peg going but that can change very quickly. You’re right about the liquidity issues but they won’t go on forever. I work at a bank and we are still processing LBP to USD operations on a daily basis. You can still withdraw up to 50k a month in cash, but we re applying a per mil fee on cash withdrawals. I think people are over-panicking. The media tends to dramatize things in this country.

I don't agree on "they won’t go on forever" and "people are over-panicking". Since several years we're in a bad economical shape, in all sectors (real-estate, startups, car dealers, restaurants, stores...). The  "الموازنة" proves that our government is desperate for cash.

real-estate: the absence of iskan, ridiculous prices of apartments...
car dealers: 25% decrease in new car selling compared to last year
startups: hundreds of startups and business are closing

The weird thing is that only bank employees are saying that we're not doing that bad. Its like bank employees are not allowed to say bad things about the economy?
Many financial analysts (like Jihad hokayem,, dan azzi, zafiris tzannatos...) are saying we're heading towards an economical crash...

Can you give us more insight on why you think things won't go on forever this way? what will change our economy?

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#22 May 30

Salloum
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

I’m not claiming the economy’s in tip top shape, but we aren’t headed for a disaster like they’re saying. I believe there is enough political benefits from abroad to ensure we could be bailed out if we ever reach the point of inevitable bankruptcy. A bankrupt lebanon means it’s likely going to be wholly controlled by factions that the West would not like. I don’t want to turn this into a political debate, but everything is closely knit and related here.

Bank employees do not have guidelines on what they may or may not say, it’s just my opinion.

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#23 May 30

nosense
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

nosense wrote:

where do you suggest we go with our money ? a safe at home ?

Guys this is a genuine question if anyone has an answer.

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#24 May 30

rolf
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

Lebanon is corrupt to the bone. I don't know if it will crash down and burn, but one thing I know, is that it won't get better, unless there is fundamental change at the "top of the pyramid" and also cultural change.

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#25 May 30

Johnaudi
Member

Re: Learning About Investment And Trading

sero wrote:

Jihad hokayem

Back on topic though, this guy is an example of the people that market themselves without actually trading, he's not well off but he's making cash from teaching! (This guy makes commission off the loss of several of his clients as far as I heard, not sure). He personally taught me an optional course at USJ (concerning trading), he kept on talking about what his private classes and his very few correct market hits. Note that the only thing I learned from this 600$ optional course was moving averages and Bollinger bands (which you can learn them yourself in a 10 minutes google search).

There are by far better financial analysts out there, and this guy already has his hate fan club which I once met in Starbucks!

In other words, don't trust what they say...

Last edited by Johnaudi (May 30)

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