LebGeeks

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#1 March 24 2016

eliminator
Member

Status of Mobile application developers in lebanon

Any feedback on the current situation of this tech skill?

A) Are Android and iOS being taught in most universities (or only a few)? are fresh grads skilled enough ?

B) Are fresh grads not joining this career path because it is somehow limited ?

C) Is the market overcrowded with iOS and Android developers? or on the contrary, the good devs are hard to find?

D) Is most of the mobile development being outsourced (India)?

E) Are companies in Lebanon taking mobile serious or not yet, and by serious I mean developing around the whole cycle, which include and not limited to: generic designs( old vs new phone, all aspect ratios, tablets,  quality control, mobile automation testing etc..). Because the way I see it (Based on the apps on the playstore), is either a company that has one single mobile project and everything revolves around it and the mobile devs are changed frequently (based on a small linkedin investigation). Or a company specialized in mobile dev, and use the economy approach of "khazi2 w lazzi2", just implement the app with the lowest cost and them move forward to the next app/client. And rarely those app are operational when you download or they are outdated?

F) A CEO told me lately "All the app developers, think that they are going to make a hit on the market playstore and so you can't find a good mobile developer who's focus on his daily task, he is always working/dreaming on his side project", how credible is that statement?

Any other speculation is welcomed

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#2 September 18 2016

vlatkozelka
Member

Re: Status of Mobile application developers in lebanon

A )Well I study at Unviersité Antonine " Antounyyeh" . And most programming classes are in Java and later in C# to prepare students for mobile apps development.
We also have Mobile application class, Advanced programming class , Ergonomics, Engineering the content of an app (translating from french) . So we don't just learn how to do it. We learn how to do it perfectly

B) I guess because of how bad things are in Lebanon . And because of the REALLY HIGH demand on Web Developers. We all hate it, but it's demanded :(

C) Like I said in B .. what market ? There just seems to be very low demand on mobile development and more web development. Hell sometimes they sell an app that's just a header and footer in native android/IOS , and the content is a WebView : pure HTML Content

/**
*Leaving D for later
*/

E) The 5azzi2 w lazzi2 approach is because of how Lebanon is in general. That's our MOTO for everything. It took me 6 months to convince co-developers where I work about the concept of proper packaging and documentation. Any file you would open you can find HTML + PHP + JS + JQUERY + .... Instead of  packaging files where every file has a certain purpose. e.g : a helper class to communicate with databases and services. JS files for well .. JS  And leave HTML as pure as possible.(that's what I mean by proper packaging). And when It came to DOCS. Well good luck finding on comment in there. You see, there is no time to properly think and do things right when the client expects you to build a whole website in ONE DAY !  - I know this is about mobile apps but the "lengthy" example fits well about how Lebanon just embraces the 5azzi2 w lazzi2 approach

But I have to be fair we do take updating , responsiveness (all screen sizes and all devices) seriously. And we do try to give the best quality. Where I work we even hire penetration testers

F) Isn't that true everywhere? I mean unless you're working with Google or Microsoft where you can start a project that can make Gamers fly if you get the idea how to do it. Wouldn't every developer be sitting during his shift thinking about that game,marketing or w.e kind of app he could be building with the "I'm too good for this job" skills he got? Talking from my own experience I barely use 1% of my knowledge at work. And if not for uni+work I'd be damn sure to have a side-project to work on.

D) Well based on previous answers  ... Wouldn't you leave this country ASAP for a better opportunity as a developer? I mean come on you get payed somewhere between 800 and 1400$ for a job you should be getting at least 3000$ for. A Lebanese developer has to design, implement, debug, front-end back-end deal with customers mop the floors make coffee ... Would you rather do that or work in a pro team where you get payed better and work on a specific task ?


PS: This is my own opinion on the matter. And I'm talking from my own experience with 2 companies and over 10 projects. I hope others have better experiences that me. But from What I see. Lebanese companies work like SAVAGES !

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#3 October 20 2016

Silentcontrol
Member

Re: Status of Mobile application developers in lebanon

vlatkozelka wrote:

A )Well I study at Unviersité Antonine " Antounyyeh" . And most programming classes are in Java and later in C# to prepare students for mobile apps development.
We also have Mobile application class, Advanced programming class , Ergonomics, Engineering the content of an app (translating from french) . So we don't just learn how to do it. We learn how to do it perfectly

B) I guess because of how bad things are in Lebanon . And because of the REALLY HIGH demand on Web Developers. We all hate it, but it's demanded :(

C) Like I said in B .. what market ? There just seems to be very low demand on mobile development and more web development. Hell sometimes they sell an app that's just a header and footer in native android/IOS , and the content is a WebView : pure HTML Content

/**
*Leaving D for later
*/

E) The 5azzi2 w lazzi2 approach is because of how Lebanon is in general. That's our MOTO for everything. It took me 6 months to convince co-developers where I work about the concept of proper packaging and documentation. Any file you would open you can find HTML + PHP + JS + JQUERY + .... Instead of  packaging files where every file has a certain purpose. e.g : a helper class to communicate with databases and services. JS files for well .. JS  And leave HTML as pure as possible.(that's what I mean by proper packaging). And when It came to DOCS. Well good luck finding on comment in there. You see, there is no time to properly think and do things right when the client expects you to build a whole website in ONE DAY !  - I know this is about mobile apps but the "lengthy" example fits well about how Lebanon just embraces the 5azzi2 w lazzi2 approach

But I have to be fair we do take updating , responsiveness (all screen sizes and all devices) seriously. And we do try to give the best quality. Where I work we even hire penetration testers

F) Isn't that true everywhere? I mean unless you're working with Google or Microsoft where you can start a project that can make Gamers fly if you get the idea how to do it. Wouldn't every developer be sitting during his shift thinking about that game,marketing or w.e kind of app he could be building with the "I'm too good for this job" skills he got? Talking from my own experience I barely use 1% of my knowledge at work. And if not for uni+work I'd be damn sure to have a side-project to work on.

D) Well based on previous answers  ... Wouldn't you leave this country ASAP for a better opportunity as a developer? I mean come on you get payed somewhere between 800 and 1400$ for a job you should be getting at least 3000$ for. A Lebanese developer has to design, implement, debug, front-end back-end deal with customers mop the floors make coffee ... Would you rather do that or work in a pro team where you get payed better and work on a specific task ?


PS: This is my own opinion on the matter. And I'm talking from my own experience with 2 companies and over 10 projects. I hope others have better experiences that me. But from What I see. Lebanese companies work like SAVAGES !

what year are you in ?

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#4 November 20 2016

vlatkozelka
Member

Re: Status of Mobile application developers in lebanon

Silentcontrol wrote:

what year are you in ?

I'm in my last semester, got just 2 months to finish.

I used to work as a Software Developer at MGG - Linux experts . Then at in2info as a junior web developer , mainly PHP, but also did Android development when customers asked for an actual mobile app rather than just a responsive website .

Both companies were small , around 5 developers each. And if all software companies in Lebanon are like that* ... well I hope I can make a ladder big enough to climb Trump's wall because things sure don't look promising here !

*that  = unorganized bazzi2 w lazzi2 put impossible to meet deadlines with under-studied projects kind of work

Last edited by vlatkozelka (November 20 2016)

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#5 November 21 2016

rolf
Member

Re: Status of Mobile application developers in lebanon

The line between mobile and web is being blurred. I also think there is a demand and future trend for companies to create mobile apps for anything and everything, even though it's a little stupid.
Mobile is today's HTML5.
Amazing revolution that was.

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#6 November 21 2016

rolf
Member

Re: Status of Mobile application developers in lebanon

vlatkozelka wrote:

AA Lebanese developer has to design, implement, debug, front-end back-end deal with customers mop the floors make coffee ... Would you rather do that or work in a pro team where you get payed better and work on a specific task ?

I agree but why would you want to leave all the fun of mopping the floor to someone else?

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#7 November 22 2016

alk
Member

Re: Status of Mobile application developers in lebanon

I think the idea of making an app for everything is a good one, our problem is not with mobile apps, the apps being developed are not truely mobile, they are html5 run atop a browser app, which is why the high demand for web development since all apps are actually websites that resize for mobile screen.
Html5 is good, but saying that html5 app is mobile is misleading. Lebanese companies just want the cheap easy way into the game, and having "cheap" web developers who make "webapps" is the way.
I have had lots of discussions with developers and managers of companies about this, i personally hate it to the core, this is our market for the time, and i can't see any change for the near future, because developers don't want to develope many time for multi platform, and insist this runs SAME performance on all!!

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#8 November 22 2016

Johnaudi
Member

Re: Status of Mobile application developers in lebanon

alk wrote:

I think the idea of making an app for everything is a good one

Definitely not. This is the main reason apps are failing. Each app should have a single purpose and a dependency of that should be how lightweight it is. I really would rather install a basic calculator app than an advanced calculator that lets you share your results and chat with friends about equations as well as a free compass option inside of it. It would make the application look like complete Chinese junk.

Note: I just read that again, you mean an individual app for everything?

Last edited by Johnaudi (November 22 2016)

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#9 November 22 2016

alk
Member

Re: Status of Mobile application developers in lebanon

Johnaudi wrote:
alk wrote:

I think the idea of making an app for everything is a good one

Definitely not. This is the main reason apps are failing. Each app should have a single purpose and a dependency of that should be how lightweight it is. I really would rather install a basic calculator app than an advanced calculator that lets you share your results and chat with friends about equations as well as a free compass option inside of it. It would make the application look like complete Chinese junk.

Note: I just read that again, you mean an individual app for everything?

Apps for everything, i think that clears it. It is an opinion, you can not definitly aver that to be the case. And i do mean mutiple small lightweight apps.
Main problem here is web developers and designers do everything, a web artist can not design the interface of an app the same way, and caching web data in the application files is redundant, you have definitions of all the interface within android itself, why use html5 and cached assets.
Why specifiy Chinese junk, all junk is junk, Chinese prefer different way to doing things, i wouldn't criticize it if i don't agree.

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#10 November 22 2016

vlatkozelka
Member

Re: Status of Mobile application developers in lebanon

rolf wrote:

The line between mobile and web is being blurred..

You sir know what's up !

I opened such discussion with a fellow software developer once and he thought I'm crazy.
People fail to realize that all we are doing is take data -> do something with it -> show it to the client

It could be a Web Browser, a desktop app, a mobile app ... It's still the same concept, different syntax

Which is where frameworks come into play. But a lot of software companies in Lebanon (at least the ones I worked with) are stuck in the 90s working from scratch methodologies.

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#11 November 22 2016

Johnaudi
Member

Re: Status of Mobile application developers in lebanon

@alk, it's not complete generalization, but most Chinese apps over complicate themselves to do several things. As it might be handy but inefficient and quite dirty load.

Back to the web development topic, I've seen a lot apps (and I mean a lot) which alternate themselves to connect to their company's website under an "application" mode similar to the mobile mode. Take Skrill's app, even Ali express still has a large bias of their application pages doing so. They are most likely obtaining the data from the web server (most likely raw) and translating it into their own app design kinda way.

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#12 November 23 2016

vlatkozelka
Member

Re: Status of Mobile application developers in lebanon

rolf wrote:
vlatkozelka wrote:

AA Lebanese developer has to design, implement, debug, front-end back-end deal with customers mop the floors make coffee ... Would you rather do that or work in a pro team where you get payed better and work on a specific task ?

I agree but why would you want to leave all the fun of mopping the floor to someone else?

Yeah but the problem is even while doing all that you are a "Junior Developer" , lol

While the definition of a full-stack developer is doing all the above !

Source

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#13 November 23 2016

rolf
Member

Re: Status of Mobile application developers in lebanon

vlatkozelka wrote:

I opened such discussion with a fellow software developer once and he thought I'm crazy.
People fail to realize that all we are doing is take data -> do something with it -> show it to the client

Thank you for your reply!

Many users don't know the difference. My grandmother surely doesn't and a big chunk of users just know the minimum to be able to use their devices.

So for them the difference is just how you start it: going into the browser vs tapping on an icon on your home screen. For those who pay to have the app/site developed, the latter is an advantage.

With the rise of cloud apps and the new concept of isomorphism, there is a definite trend towards hiding these differences from users - and that might be a good thing - devs can run their code where it is best (server, client, cloud, whatever) without affecting the user.

Of course like anything, this has the potential to be abused.

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