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#26 October 14 2017

nuclearcat
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

eWizzard wrote:

You don't think Lebanese can also transmit diseases in swimming pools?

Possible, but probability is MUCH less, it's basic statistics, as medical system at Lebanon much better than in countries from where workers coming.
Additionally, for example, employees in companies where i worked do blood tests for insurance, and insurance not interested to insure person with such chronic and serious disease(cause they will have to cover his costs later on, if he pass tests and they sign papers), so they put efforts to do real tests, and chance it will pass undiscovered - miniscule.
Even if someone totally careless and after he is aware he is sick he go to water pool, usually people take medicines for their own health, and "viral load" is low, so transmission probability is much lower.

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#27 October 14 2017

eWizzard
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

You don't have any data to do even basic statistics here, I'm afraid. I'll remind you that swimming pools are almost exclusively populated by Lebanese, so the probability of having Lebanese people with bacterial or viral infections or others (fungi, worm eggs, etc.) transmit their diseases to you is much higher in every scenario in every pool. There are tons of diseases that people don't take medicines for. You don't take stuff like doxycycline and albendazole every day, do you? Of course not.

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#28 October 14 2017

nuclearcat
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

eWizzard wrote:

You don't have any data to do even basic statistics here, I'm afraid. I'll remind you that swimming pools are almost exclusively populated by Lebanese, so the probability of having Lebanese people with bacterial or viral infections or others (fungi, worm eggs, etc.) transmit their diseases to you is much higher in every scenario in every pool. There are tons of diseases that people don't take medicines for. You don't take stuff like doxycycline and albendazole every day, do you? Of course not.

I'm afraid i have:
http://www.wpro.who.int/hepatitis/data/ … istics/en/
Hepatitis B
Philipines 8.4%
Bangladesh (from pubmed) 5.5%
Ethiopia(also pubmed) 7.4%

In Medical journal at 2007 it is stated for Lebanon:
Positive Hepatitis B(%)
Males 1.4%
Female 2.4%
Highest at rural areas of south and bekaa, in Beirut and mount lebanon it is very low (<1%).
As some sources mention situation is improving, as children in Lebanon are vaccinated.

Doxycycline & albendazole wont help you against fungus and viral infections. Also i am not an idiot to take them without prescription.
Additionally, fungus and worm eggs are curable and not end of world at all, but hepatitis and other viral diseases might take serious cut from your lifespan and quite hard and expensive to cure.

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#29 October 14 2017

eWizzard
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

Hepatitis B is not known to be transmitted in swimming pools. But for the sake of discussion, let's assume that it can be, and we can say other transmittable diseases have similar prevalences.
So on average, in an average pool populated by 39 Lebanese and 1 Ethiopian (if you're lucky enough to see one) you're about 10 times more likely to catch a hepatitis B virus that originated from the Lebanese (1.85% chance) than from the Ethiopian (0.19%). To have equal chance of catching it from either, out of 40 swimmers you would need to have 32 Lebanese and 8 Ethiopians (1.5% chance for both). Have you ever seen that many Ethiopians in a Lebanese swimming pool, not even simultaneously, but cumulatively, i.e. in your life? Because I haven't. In any case, those are very low percentages that are actually even lower in real life because pools have large volumes and the chlorinated water is continuously circulated and filtered. So then, where's the problem in letting Ethiopians swim with everyone else? With those percentages, the risks of infection are practically negligible, so there's no real health problem to worry about. It follows that pool owners are not basing their decision on rationality, but either misguidedness or ignorance.

nuclearcat wrote:

Additionally, fungus and worm eggs are curable and not end of world at all, but hepatitis and other viral diseases might take serious cut from your lifespan and quite hard and expensive to cure.

It depends. Some people recover from hepatitis B on their own without problems. Others, not so much. Same with worms; some types don't do much, while others can cause anemia and various health problems, the worst possibly being hydatid cysts, which are very hard to cure and can be life-threatening.

edit: maths

Last edited by eWizzard (October 14 2017)

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#30 October 14 2017

AVOlio
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

I have to agree with @nuclearat that statistically, it is logical that people coming from these poor third world countries are prone to have the chance of diseases more than people in our country. I mean it is kind of logical even if statistics don't exist.

However looking at that fact, this is still not an excuse for us to discriminate them.
If people / pool / resort owner are afraid of the diseases of the migrant people they should also be as much as afraid of regular Lebanese people aswell.

Now coming to the reason of why I revived this topic, is because something similar happened with me and my partner who is Not Lebanese and is a foreigner about a year ago.
Me, her, a friend of mine and his Non Lebanese Wife booked a room in some resort to the north area, and by call we specifically mentioned that we are 2 couple looking to stay during day only and have a room at the resort, to which by phone aswell he acknowledged that fact and approved it. By the time we got there, the moment he saw and realised that our partners were foreigner and not Lebanese, he started making last minute excuses and denied us a stay in the resort.
Anyway, so I made a comment on their fb page telling what happened and calling them discirminative and racist, recently the guy called my contact (the contact who I used to get the reservation at the beginning) and demanding by force for me to remove the comment, which I will certainly  not do.

So yea, that is why I'm asking for the legality of this issue.
Is it legal or illegal to do this?

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#31 October 14 2017

eWizzard
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

Hard to say. Since the resort is private property, they can deny access at their own discretion, for any reason.

Obviously, I don't know what the guy said to you when you saw him and on the phone, but it seems that he didn't give you a reason for the denial and is now accusing you of libel. In that case, you should ask for a clarification as to why you were denied (you should've done that first), if he didn't already tell you. Make sure to record his response, just in case.

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#32 October 15 2017

nuclearcat
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

eWizzard wrote:

Hepatitis B is not known to be transmitted in swimming pools. But for the sake of discussion, let's assume that it can be, and we can say other transmittable diseases have similar prevalences.
So on average, in an average pool populated by 39 Lebanese and 1 Ethiopian (if you're lucky enough to see one) you're about 10 times more likely to catch a hepatitis B virus that originated from the Lebanese (1.85% chance) than from the Ethiopian (0.19%). To have equal chance of catching it from either, out of 40 swimmers you would need to have 32 Lebanese and 8 Ethiopians (1.5% chance for both). Have you ever seen that many Ethiopians in a Lebanese swimming pool, not even simultaneously, but cumulatively, i.e. in your life? Because I haven't. In any case, those are very low percentages that are actually even lower in real life because pools have large volumes and the chlorinated water is continuously circulated and filtered. So then, where's the problem in letting Ethiopians swim with everyone else? With those percentages, the risks of infection are practically negligible, so there's no real health problem to worry about. It follows that pool owners are not basing their decision on rationality, but either misguidedness or ignorance.

nuclearcat wrote:

Additionally, fungus and worm eggs are curable and not end of world at all, but hepatitis and other viral diseases might take serious cut from your lifespan and quite hard and expensive to cure.

It depends. Some people recover from hepatitis B on their own without problems. Others, not so much. Same with worms; some types don't do much, while others can cause anemia and various health problems, the worst possibly being hydatid cysts, which are very hard to cure and can be life-threatening.

edit: maths

Hepatitis B is blood-to-blood disease. In theory such infection should be safe in water prools. However, read guides for infected people, guess why they recommend them to not go water pools, saunas and etc, if they have any wounds, bruises... And guess why. Hint: Hepatitis B can survive in body fluids up to 7 days outside body. And some information are given in such ways, that it wont cause panic in public and it wont cause ostracization and isolation of infected people.
And statistics&theory of probability is not arithmetics, but i don't want to go deep on that.
Plus as i said problem of domestic workers is not that they are infected by hepatitis, or they are dirty or so. They are definitely not. Problem is that they are originated from countries with high risk of various infections/diseases, and when you mix that with fact that their medical information is often falsified, they are originated from poor demographical groups, and worse they don't pass routine checks (as it's expensive), all because medical system in lebanon and their countries is flawed in this - that's put population life in risk. So society trying to defend himself, as many who had business with domestic workers(especially resorts owners) - know this issues, but afraid or don't want to talk.
It is weird mix of social problems, psychology and flaws in medical system. So screaming "let the domestic workers enter public places and threat them as equal" wont be enough, subconscious fear will remain and society will keep resisting such noble (but stupid) efforts.
But if people works towards fixing _REAL_ issue - such as issuance of fake medical exams, for example making that as criminal offense by law and enforcing it by activists - situation will change.

Thats a problem of modern active society - they see and trying to solve problems very superficially, without trying to delve into them in details. For them it is enough to find a noble problem, loudly scream and voila - you are a hero.

Last edited by nuclearcat (October 15 2017)

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#33 October 15 2017

nuclearcat
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

Another problem is "activism with bulging eyes" who push forward their agenda without thinking - kills whole idea of activism, and disgusts it, because the activists act extremely stupidly and aggressive.
Like with pools its a problem not of owner decision, owner might be forced to accept domestic workers by law at the end. But... all these fancy girls and boys, who are payers/profit - will turn somewhere else. And no activist can force them to stop "voting by money" by not visiting place, it is against common sense. In the worst case, the beaches will become expensive closed clubs, which will make situation even more grave. Therefore, as I said earlier - the problem is much more complicated than it seems at first.
The ultimate solution is to make employing domestic worker - as very expensive privilege, so if someone will afford it, he will take care about medical questions, and abusing worker will turn exorbitantly expensive for him, but... this opens another problem, you will not be tormented by the thought that someone family is dying of hunger in the Philippines or in Ethiopia, as domestic worker employment will shrink?

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#34 October 15 2017

tmash2
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

-

Last edited by tmash2 (February 21 2021)

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#35 October 15 2017

rolf
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

AVOlio wrote:

Reviving this old thread.

So is this sort of discrimination/racism as in not letting foreigners who work as house helpers in beaches/resorts still going on today?

Any legality behind it?


My guess is yes, it is still going on.

The main issue in Lebanon is that there is no official "philosophy" or stand against racism.

And now we are doing progress, this type of treatment is being extended to Syrians:

22195561_10159346831600263_6016359882771289122_n.jpg?oh=7585efc8dbdf2f6873c2ef28c907bc0d&oe=5A6DD799

Cruel.C0re wrote:

i wonder if for example a rich  filipino tourist  (for examp) went to a resort and paid ,will they allow her to enter ?

I have heard of an incident - I forgot the details but basically it went like something like: the wife of the ambassador of Sri-Lanka was swimming, and she got told to get out of the swimming pool.

Last edited by rolf (October 15 2017)

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#36 October 29 2017

eWizzard
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

nuclearcat wrote:

Hepatitis B is blood-to-blood disease. In theory such infection should be safe in water prools. However, read guides for infected people, guess why they recommend them to not go water pools, saunas and etc, if they have any wounds, bruises... And guess why. Hint: Hepatitis B can survive in body fluids up to 7 days outside body. And some information are given in such ways, that it wont cause panic in public and it wont cause ostracization and isolation of infected people.

That's for infected blood on dry surfaces. Swimming pools are not dry surfaces. Since hepatitis B requires blood to survive, diluting the blood by a factor of billions means that the virus can't possibly survive like how you're describing it. There's no reason for panic and putting fear into people, because again the risk of transmission is negligible. Obviously, things will be different with other diseases. Nice try turning it into a paranoid conspiracy though.

nuclearcat wrote:

this opens another problem, you will not be tormented by the thought that someone family is dying of hunger in the Philippines or in Ethiopia, as domestic worker employment will shrink?

No, because I'm not responsible for people suffering and dying beyond my control. However, I'd be 100% responsible if I had brought them here, enslaved them and abused them for years for little to no pay, and then sent them back home to die. A lot of people are responsible for that, and who is going to pursue them for all the torment they've caused? Or do we just wrap it all up and forget about it, as one of the worst and most appropriate sayings in Arabic goes يلي صار صار ويلي ضرب ضرب ويلي هرب هرب ?

As for the beach/resort owners and their rich kid customers... I don't care, I'll happily boycott all of them. Those owners already employ migrant domestic workers anyway, so those "subconscious fears" are really code words for hypocrisy and racial subjugation.

I agree with your solution (same thing I said in my first post).

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#37 October 29 2017

nuclearcat
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

eWizzard wrote:

That's for infected blood on dry surfaces. Swimming pools are not dry surfaces. Since hepatitis B requires blood to survive, diluting the blood by a factor of billions means that the virus can't possibly survive like how you're describing it. There's no reason for panic and putting fear into people, because again the risk of transmission is negligible. Obviously, things will be different with other diseases. Nice try turning it into a paranoid conspiracy though.

My point is real example that is occurred in one of families i know very well. Except hepatitis there is tons of diseases are uncontrolled in such countries, and while it's very important to eliminate racism in lebanon, it is even more important to understand, that with inefficient disease control, examination of foreign workers - such incidents are expected to occur.

eWizzard wrote:

No, because I'm not responsible for people suffering and dying beyond my control. However, I'd be 100% responsible if I had brought them here, ...

Actually, water pool/resort guy way of thinking is very similar. Just other details slightly different.
We are responsible for each living thing on this planet, as soon as we can make things for them better. But as we can't stretch ourself for each case, we need to think about efficiency. But it's too long subject.

eWizzard wrote:

As for the beach/resort owners and their rich kid customers... I don't care, I'll happily boycott all of them. Those owners already employ migrant domestic workers anyway, so those "subconscious fears" are really code words for hypocrisy and racial subjugation.

I agree with your solution (same thing I said in my first post).

Sorry, but such boycotting reminds me "Don Quichotte" of Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra.

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#38 November 28 2017

nuclearcat
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

I will show different side of "racism" witch hunting, somehow related.
Girl(russian blogger, she write in russian language only) was criticized in her previous posts for too pale skin, she said she will try alternative color and painted her face in dark color. Russians commented its interesting experiment, she didnt mentioned anything about other race or etc at all.
All of sudden appeared lot of english speaking punks(mostly african americans) who started harassing her and call racist. Obviously its not allowed to paint your face black, because some snowflakes will be offended.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bby3X8qjNeD/

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#39 August 7 2018

rolf
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

Last week I witnessed a couple of Syrians being humiliated, made to be stand in the gutter facing the wall and yelled at for 1/2 hour, because they broke the "curfew".

I don't think that any of this behavior is legally protected, to the contrary, Lebanon signed the Declaration of Human Rights, to which it's Ambassador (Charles Malik) took part of the drafting. Lebanon is supposed to be a liberal country, and I understand that there are laws against segregation.

Some other stories about the treatment of domestic workers are making international news:

Kenyan domestic worker assaulted by mob in Lebanon faces deportation
Lebanon closes case of Ethiopian maid who jumped from employers' home

And these are only the ones we hear about!

Lebanon has a lot of potential. In every incident that triggers racism (refugees, etc) there is actually an opportunity. For example, the influx of refugees brought the attention to the country and brought in a lot of activity from international NGOs. Lebanon was touted as a champion of humanity for "taking in" so many refugees. We should take advantage of this to further build up the international reputation of the country.

Foreign workforce has good aspects such as knowledge transfer. Domestic workers bring cultural diversity and enrichment.

This is an opportunity to get ready for the future. To progress towards a cultural environment and a system that is more a more attractive to investment and tourism and a better environment for foreigners and Lebanese.

How do we make this happen?

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#40 August 7 2018

Azachariou
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

rolf wrote:

How do we make this happen?

The problem as I see it:

Living in a country where everything could turn upside down at any moment, for so long, turned people with tremendous potential into people only interested in making a quick buck. Anything that requires long planning and execution that doesn't line their pockets immediately will probably fail if even attempted at all.

I am hopeful though, that our generation will lead the charge of the change you're talking about.

As to how, that's the difficult part.

A big first step would be in my opinion, that each person deal with their implicit biases. Nobody is immune to them and they can have a huge impact on society.

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#41 August 7 2018

rolf
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

Azachariou wrote:

A big first step would be in my opinion, that each person deal with their implicit biases. Nobody is immune to them and they can have a huge impact on society.

yes, possibly we all have biases that make use see the present in the light of our past experience and a "script" that we tend to follow - I am guessing because it is easier to steer things towards a more predictable narrative that we are familiar and comfortable with, but in the long run I guess it hurts. Which is what this is about. Racism doesn't pay in the long term, it only gives a temporary sense of security.

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#42 August 9 2018

beezer
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

Lebanese people are being killed by Lebanese people and the government doesn't do anything. You think they will care about non Nationals?

There is racism in Lebanon within its own people, secular and political.

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#43 August 9 2018

Azachariou
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

Which is why I chose implicit biases as a first step. This isn't going anywhere until people realize that everybody on this earth is as worthy of respect and rights in general as they are...

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#44 August 10 2018

rolf
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

I am not complaining about a few persons or groups being racist. I am worried that it seems to be part of the system and considered mainstream as evidenced by the swimming resorts experiment, in Beirut and Mount Lebanon at least.

Sadly, I am ashamed to call myself Lebanese anymore, I will stop being ashamed when (all other things kept equal):
- The curfew specifically targeting Syrians is cancelled and the banners removed.
- We have 24h electricity and not from diesel motors.

I dont think that I'm asking for much, not even good internet.

Last edited by rolf (August 10 2018)

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#45 November 13 2018

Cage
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

AVOlio wrote:

I have to agree with @nuclearat that statistically, it is logical that people coming from these poor third world countries are prone to have the chance of diseases more than people in our country. I mean it is kind of logical even if statistics don't exist.

However looking at that fact, this is still not an excuse for us to discriminate them.
If people / pool / resort owner are afraid of the diseases of the migrant people they should also be as much as afraid of regular Lebanese people aswell.

Now coming to the reason of why I revived this topic, is because something similar happened with me and my partner who is Not Lebanese and is a foreigner about a year ago.
Me, her, a friend of mine and his Non Lebanese Wife booked a room in some resort to the north area, and by call we specifically mentioned that we are 2 couple looking to stay during day only and have a room at the resort, to which by phone aswell he acknowledged that fact and approved it. By the time we got there, the moment he saw and realised that our partners were foreigner and not Lebanese, he started making last minute excuses and denied us a stay in the resort.
Anyway, so I made a comment on their fb page telling what happened and calling them discirminative and racist, recently the guy called my contact (the contact who I used to get the reservation at the beginning) and demanding by force for me to remove the comment, which I will certainly  not do.

So yea, that is why I'm asking for the legality of this issue.
Is it legal or illegal to do this?

i know its almost been a year on this but workers are obliged to perform tests before they come to Lebanon so yea if one discovers she\he has some kind of disease they wont bring them here . And i pretty much believe its not legal to do this but u know we are living in Lebanon !

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#46 November 13 2018

Cage
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

i actually think Ethiopia Philippines Bangladesh governments should look into the matter and discuss it with the Lebanese government. If there is no response i completely agree the step towards making more restrictions or even booking free flights for domestic workers to return back to their countries as the Philippines once did with Kuwait after they found a sliced dead body of a Filipino worker that was murdered by a Lebanese man and his Syrian wife. And i do realize that alot and i really mean alot of Lebanese people have some kind of discrimination or racism towards domestic workers and unfortunately i see it everyday . One reason why i am planning to leave this country after a couple of years ... Good job Lebanon , keep losing the youth.

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#47 November 13 2018

rolf
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

I think there are restrictions already but people find ways around it.

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#48 November 14 2018

Cage
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

rolf wrote:

I think there are restrictions already but people find ways around it.

Yup also heard about that.

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#49 November 14 2018

duke-of-bytes
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

why can't i hate someone because of his race ?! i am asking about the why it is wrong ?

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#50 November 14 2018

Karl Marx
Member

Re: Racist Lebanon

duke-of-bytes wrote:

why can't i hate someone because of his race ?! i am asking about the why it is wrong ?

Those are separate questions. You can hate anyone due to their race simply because that's your right. It's considered wrong by reasonable people because you are hating someone for something they cannot change/did not choose. It's as if I hated you only because you have big ears; that has nothing to do with what kind of person you are so rightfully most people would consider me unfair and ridiculous. This is the simple answer. The more complicated answer involves a deconstruction of the notion of race and a recognition of the largely social and historical dynamic that has gone into shaping it into what it is today. If you do your research (and agree), you'll realize that what takes precedence in your mind isn't if this or that act is racist but how race itself is a very flawed and ambiguous concept.

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