Racist lebanon

al_jamal · 2011-04-20T12:07:40+00:00

http://ethiopiansuicides.blogspot.com/2011/03/lebanese-society-is-deeply-racist-and.html what do you think, how can this be changed? i mean most lebanese...

xterm

J4D wrote>.<

Edit: Sorry, had to :P

Haha!

rolf

Seriously :-) you could teach her programming and she will probably be forever grateful :-) But you probably do not have the time - and that's if she is receptive and has the capacity...
It's just an idea I had a while ago... why not take these very-lowly-paid workers and teach them some high level skills like programming.
And I also wanted to know, who you're talking to when you say "don't generalize?".
BTW congrats on your environment at home. There's one thing though... she might not want to stay forever, nor you might want to keep her forever... that is the question that often gets me thinking for these people. But maybe it's OK after all... and learning her language did sound a bit over the top, but then, again, is there anything such as too much good? Maybe not.

xterm

rolf wroteAnd I also wanted to know, who you're talking to when you say "don't generalize?".

No one in particular.

rolf wroteBTW congrats on your environment at home. There's one thing though... she might not want to stay forever, nor you might want to keep her forever... that is the question that often gets me thinking for these people. But maybe it's OK after all...

It's no loss, we remodeled the kitchen/balcony in a suitable way. If she leaves we can still use it.

and learning her language did sound a bit over the top, but then, again, is there anything such as too much good? Maybe not.

I'm not learning her language, she's learning english and arabic. When she doesn't understand something, she gets me the book and i point the definition. The funny thing is, she always says that my 6 months old son will start speaking arabic before she does.

rolf

xterm wrote
rolf wroteBTW congrats on your environment at home. There's one thing though... she might not want to stay forever, nor you might want to keep her forever... that is the question that often gets me thinking for these people. But maybe it's OK after all...
It's no loss, we remodeled the kitchen/balcony in a suitable way. If she leaves we can still use it.

That's not what I meant. (Of course the kitchen will stay, she's not going to take her with her :-D ) I just meant on an "emotional" level, if she considers this to be her family, and if you also get used to her... It's something that has always been a question mark in my head... maids are treated like family as long as they are here, but then they take a ticket and leave and they're not family anymore (until they come back, if they ever do!). How do they live this? And how does it affect us, although nobody ever talks of this?

rolf wrote
and learning her language did sound a bit over the top, but then, again, is there anything such as too much good? Maybe not.
I'm not learning her language, she's learning english and arabic. When she doesn't understand something, she gets me the book and i point the definition. The funny thing is, she always says that my 6 months old son will start speaking arabic before she does.

Ok sorry, I did pay enough attention, I just saw a mention of amharic and I thought you were trying to learn the language!

xterm

rolf wroteI just meant on an "emotional" level, if she considers this to be her family, and if you also get used to her... It's something that has always been a question mark in my head... maids are treated like family as long as they are here, but then they take a ticket and leave and they're not family anymore (until they come back, if they ever do!). How do they live this? And how does it affect us, although nobody ever talks of this?

Good question. I'll tell you when she leaves :-)

al_jamal

nice to hear that xterm!

im really asking myself how racism can be thrown out of the heads

Joe

@nuclear: I agree very much with what you said.

I think it is mislead to talk about "racism" in Lebanon. I found that, despite the obvious exceptions, people in Lebanon are generally good-hearted and will always help their neighbors in the most natural way.

The problem, a real problem, is generalization. People in Lebanon tend to generalize too much over a simple encounter. "All Ukranian girls are hot and they're prostitutes", simply because I saw Ukranian prostitutes. "All Russian people are like this, all black people are like that, ..." We tend to generalize facts based on singular events.

The worst thing concerning house workers, worse than the exceptional abuses that do happen each day, are those generalizations: "Don't get an Ethiopian, get a Philippino they're better". What the fuck is that supposed to mean?!

We see Sri Lankans, Philippinos and Ethiopians as "dirty" and "inferior" because all we see is poor people coming to do the "dirty" work. If we hung out with higher-middle class philippinos (and I did), we'd find that we have so much in common with them.

I think the problem comes from the cast system our society is based on. The difference between who's the "cheikh", the "beik", the "rayyess" and who's not. When we'll start to believe ourselves that each Lebanese is equal to the next, we'll start believing that we're even equal to the Sri Lanki cleaning our house, the Egyptian at the gas station or the Sudani guarding our buildings.

We should stop generalizing. Each one is different. If I meet a dirty black guy, it does not mean that all black dudes are dirty. It means that this guy is dirty. (I believe there are dirty people in each race, am I wrong?)

Finally on a side note:

rolf wroteThere's one thing though... she might not want to stay forever, nor you might want to keep her forever...

You made me think of a saying:

(manager to CEO)What if we train our employees and they leave us?
(CEO to manager)What if we don't train them and they stay?!

kareem_nasser

@rahmu: Kudos. Nothing more can be said.
Once we think the same way you are saying then we can consider implementing a more non-sectarian political system, also vote based on what a politician can do for the country not to what he/she can do to our city/village( also in this case there are lies and corruption).

al_jamal

i heard ones that the UAE, Kuwaitis treat the lebanese similiar like the lebanese treat the sri lankis? is that true?

Tempto

rahmu wrote@nuclear: I agree very much with what you said.

I think it is mislead to talk about "racism" in Lebanon. I found that, despite the obvious exceptions, people in Lebanon are generally good-hearted and will always help their neighbors in the most natural way.

The problem, a real problem, is generalization. People in Lebanon tend to generalize too much over a simple encounter. "All Ukranian girls are hot and they're prostitutes", simply because I saw Ukranian prostitutes. "All Russian people are like this, all black people are like that, ..." We tend to generalize facts based on singular events.

The worst thing concerning house workers, worse than the exceptional abuses that do happen each day, are those generalizations: "Don't get an Ethiopian, get a Philippino they're better". What the fuck is that supposed to mean?!

We see Sri Lankans, Philippinos and Ethiopians as "dirty" and "inferior" because all we see is poor people coming to do the "dirty" work. If we hung out with higher-middle class philippinos (and I did), we'd find that we have so much in common with them.

I think the problem comes from the cast system our society is based on. The difference between who's the "cheikh", the "beik", the "rayyess" and who's not. When we'll start to believe ourselves that each Lebanese is equal to the next, we'll start believing that we're even equal to the Sri Lanki cleaning our house, the Egyptian at the gas station or the Sudani guarding our buildings.

We should stop generalizing. Each one is different. If I meet a dirty black guy, it does not mean that all black dudes are dirty. It means that this guy is dirty. (I believe there are dirty people in each race, am I wrong?)

Finally on a side note:

rolf wroteThere's one thing though... she might not want to stay forever, nor you might want to keep her forever...
You made me think of a saying:

(manager to CEO)What if we train our employees and they leave us?
(CEO to manager)What if we don't train them and they stay?!

Stereotyping.. that reminds me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCgx8zM3woQ

:D

But seriously, I do agree with you. I grew up in the Philippines and though I was born here and both my parents are Lebanese, I still do get ticked off when people stereotype them as all being black, because most of them are not. Also, here in Lebanon, they are also stereotyped of being in very poor schools with poor education. Now I am not going to argue, there are many of these unfortunately poor children there, but in the major cities, everything is just as it is here. Although there are more poor people on the road.

As I said, even though I am not Filipino, I do defend them when they are wrongly accused of being X because I know what they are like firsthand and the ignorance aimed towards them is just so... plainly ignorant.

rolf

al_jamal wrotei heard ones that the UAE, Kuwaitis treat the lebanese similiar like the lebanese treat the sri lankis? is that true?

I didn't see any of that when I was there. But in general, in the UAE system, all foreign workers are treated like guests workers. They can send you back whenever they want, and you have reduced rights without having any benefits or exceptions as a foreigner (the same backward laws still get applied to you). And you are not made to feel especially valuable, on the opposite they make sure you know and never forget that there are 100 others waiting to take your place. So in this aspect there are similarities.

xazbrat

There's a bumper sticker you see in the states sometimes "I'm not prejudiced--I hate everybody" :)

But, seriously--racism or prejudice occurs everywhere. Our neighbors to the south call their country a jewish homeland, but you can read lots of reports how jewish immigrants from Ethiopia are treated. In Korea, Japan, China, there is still a belief in the purity of the race, and children from mixed races are often treated as outcasts. In India, there is already an inherent system of racism/prejudice called the caste system.

Bottom line, we are no worse than a lot of countries and better off than many. That doesn't excuse what happens here--it just puts it in perspective. New laws would help, but people will continue to discriminate, no matter the law. People have to be educated and be exposed to different cultures and that is what IMO makes a person less likely to become a racist. In a society like in Lebanon which tends to be open and is exposed to many different cultures, it is still a sad state of affairs though.

invalid-user-43

xazbrat wroteIn a society like in Lebanon which tends to be open and is exposed to many different cultures, it is still a sad state of affairs though.

LOLWUT. Lebanon is mostly an inbred wasteland of cultural intolerance, and it's mostly due to the fact that Lebanon doesn't contain much foreigners, especially in places like workplaces, schools, and universities. How many Japanese, Paraguayan, Turkish, Swedish, Australian, Finnish, Mexican, Spanish, Croatian, etc. people have you met in Lebanon ?

xazbrat

---()--()--- wrote
xazbrat wroteIn a society like in Lebanon which tends to be open and is exposed to many different cultures, it is still a sad state of affairs though.
LOLWUT. Lebanon is mostly an inbred wasteland of cultural intolerance, and it's mostly due to the fact that Lebanon doesn't contain much foreigners, especially in places like workplaces, schools, and universities. How many Japanese, Paraguayan, Turkish, Swedish, Australian, Finnish, Mexican, Spanish, Croatian, etc. people have you met in Lebanon ?

It depends on where you are--around Beirut, I disagree with your point--the further away you get from there, you have a point. And I have met lots of foreigners here--Americans, Canadians, Turks, Korean, French, Australia among others--also, don't forget about the large number of diaspora. Almost everyone I know have relatives residing in a foreign country. That may be only in the circles I talk to, but I find that hard to believe.

invalid-user-43

xazbrat wrote
---()--()--- wrote
xazbrat wroteIn a society like in Lebanon which tends to be open and is exposed to many different cultures, it is still a sad state of affairs though.
LOLWUT. Lebanon is mostly an inbred wasteland of cultural intolerance, and it's mostly due to the fact that Lebanon doesn't contain much foreigners, especially in places like workplaces, schools, and universities. How many Japanese, Paraguayan, Turkish, Swedish, Australian, Finnish, Mexican, Spanish, Croatian, etc. people have you met in Lebanon ?
It depends on where you are--around Beirut, I disagree with your point--the further away you get from there, you have a point. And I have met lots of foreigners here--Americans, Canadians, Turks, Korean, French, Australia among others--also, don't forget about the large number of diaspora. Almost everyone I know have relatives residing in a foreign country. That may be only in the circles I talk to, but I find that hard to believe.

Have you ever traveled outside of Lebanon ?

xazbrat

---()--()--- wrote
xazbrat wrote
---()--()--- wrote LOLWUT. Lebanon is mostly an inbred wasteland of cultural intolerance, and it's mostly due to the fact that Lebanon doesn't contain much foreigners, especially in places like workplaces, schools, and universities. How many Japanese, Paraguayan, Turkish, Swedish, Australian, Finnish, Mexican, Spanish, Croatian, etc. people have you met in Lebanon ?
It depends on where you are--around Beirut, I disagree with your point--the further away you get from there, you have a point. And I have met lots of foreigners here--Americans, Canadians, Turks, Korean, French, Australia among others--also, don't forget about the large number of diaspora. Almost everyone I know have relatives residing in a foreign country. That may be only in the circles I talk to, but I find that hard to believe.
Have you ever traveled outside of Lebanon ?

A bit--last I counted was 63 different countries and 44 US states--why do you ask?

Joe

Guys, keep it cool. The topic is about racism in Lebanon. No need to get personal.

invalid-user-43

xazbrat wrote
---()--()--- wrote
xazbrat wroteIt depends on where you are--around Beirut, I disagree with your point--the further away you get from there, you have a point. And I have met lots of foreigners here--Americans, Canadians, Turks, Korean, French, Australia among others--also, don't forget about the large number of diaspora. Almost everyone I know have relatives residing in a foreign country. That may be only in the circles I talk to, but I find that hard to believe.
Have you ever traveled outside of Lebanon ?
A bit--last I counted was 63 different countries and 44 US states--why do you ask?

Your "Lebanon is open and is exposed to many different cultures" claim is absurd. That's why I asked. :)

hussam

xazbrat wroteA bit--last I counted was 63 different countries and 44 US states--why do you ask?

Next time you go to one of those countries, can you download something and burn it to CD for me? :D
(I thought I'd stick a internet_is_slow_in_lebanon joke into the thread ^^)

xazbrat

---()--()--- wrote
xazbrat wrote
---()--()--- wroteHave you ever traveled outside of Lebanon ?
A bit--last I counted was 63 different countries and 44 US states--why do you ask?
Your "Lebanon is open and is exposed to many different cultures" claim is absurd. That's why I asked. :)

If you want to use the word "absurd", then let us agree to disagree and move on. You are definitely not got going to change my opinion nor am I yours. This is not the venue for such discussions anyway.

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