Are warez allowed?

Shatilov · 2010-05-24T22:31:21+00:00

I'm new here in this forum, but I always followed the news you guys posted about games & internet, & online gaming, I didn't know that there are othe...

Flakk

rahmu wroteHere's why I get really pissed at people using illegal copies of softwares:

Taking a look at its history, you would see that the open source community was born from a reaction to the proprietary software movement. Until the 70s, source code was shared freely, and when companies began to close it (and claim 'intellectual property'), the open source movement was born. (It was called free software movement at the time. Moving on ...)

These programmers believed that the closed source ideologies would create the exact same problems you guys are complaining about (high prices, lack of availability, unfair distribution, ...) so they decided to give away their code for free. Out of their free will.

And do not believe that they couldn't sell their programs! People like Richard Stallman, Linux Torvalds, Allan Cox, Bruce Perens, Eric Raymond, ... These people are considered to be some of the best programmers of all time. Their code is literally worth millions, yet they gave it away for free. Projects like Apache, gcc, PHP, Python, Mozilla, bison, emacs, VIM, ... were born simply so that anyone could have access to technology. And God knows they're some of the best pieces of software around.

The problems of closed-source software exists and are real. For example: Kassem asked for Visual Studio Express or SQL Server who are given away at no cost from Microsoft's website. Did you know that it is still illegal for me (living in France and having high speed connection) to download them and give them to Kassem. One of the biggest advantages of open source software is not the gratuity, but the freedom to distribute the software as you please.

By going for illegal software, you are taking down the fight of the whole community. For instance, did you know that one of the biggest constraint to Linux's adoption on the desktop is the availability of pirated Windows version. Microsoft could very easily block these as soon as they connect to the internet, yet it would NEVER do that. Same goes for Adobe products.

What we are asking is for everyone to respect the law, so that we could show the politicians how bad these laws really are.

I too do not believe in patents. I do not believe in 'intellectual property'. I believe that these are big problems. As far as the law is concerned, I am not going to pirate anything though, but rather use the power of open source to fight it.

Finally for those of you who do not believe in open source or would claim that it's not as good as its commercial equivalent, simply know that I'm not the only one on this forum to use mostly open source free applications (if not exclusively), the tech software I mentioned before rank as the best in the world, here's a movie made by 100% open source software, and there are countless GIMP professional around the world who would attest that the availability of such a tool for free (free of cost and of licensing) gives them a huge cutting edge advantage.

Very well said rahmu.
Instead of using pirated software, use open source software.
I personally enjoy using software like mozilla's firefox, thunderbird, Openoffice and many others.

But normal people need to be educated about that. We need to inform people that pirating software is harmful and using free open source software is better.

Also let me ask you, most of the open source software websites accept donations. Have you ever donated to any open source software ?
I personally would have if paypal was available in Lebanon.

nuclearcat

rahmu - completely agree with you

Kassem

Now xterm will have something to joke about lol...

But seriously rahmu, you are so damn right about everything you've said. Unfortunately, even open-source software are huge and should be downloaded (because they are not available in the Lebanese DVD-shops). Consequently, I prefer spending my tiny weeny 4GB downloading video tutorials rather than open-source software (although I do download some open-source software sometimes - including GIMP which is a great tool).

Joe

@Flakk:
Using and promoting open source software (especially in Lebanon where it is REALLY needed) is much more a contribution than any amount of money you could send. Here's what you could do to participate. Always use alternatives when you have the choice. Sometimes you'll have to use proprietary software and it is understandable. I still use a Flash player, mp3 codecs, and Skype. These are all proprietary. But every time I have the choice, I go for the open source. 99% of the time, I'll find what I need.

@Kassem:
I constantly try to bring back the executables of as many open source software as I can each time I come back to Lebanon. I'm coming back in August, don't hesitate to ask anything. I know there are organizations in Lebanon like Ubuntu-lb or the RootSpace who would get you the open source programs you need. Maybe for a small fee, I'm not sure...

I do not believe that you should pay a software to pay the work of a programmer. This is untrue. A real hacker knows to give away code for free. (He makes money in another way. But that's another subject, I'd have to start a whole other topic for this). But piracy is hurting the open/free world more than the corporations. So I stay away from it as much as I can.

PS Even though we disagree on the 'giving-away-code-for-free' part, I'm sure even xterm will agree that open source is a more viable solution than piracy.

beezer

I'd love to see you guys find an open source alternative for Illustrator which runs on OS X and Windows.

Sometimes open source just doesn't cut it, or cheaper alternatives don't as well. I'm using one called Inkscape after trying 3 others, it's the best. But still has a long ways to go.

If you're looking for FTP GUI's, word editors, and media players that's fine. But get to the serious side of things and you won't find any substitute.

If you can't buy the box version, buy the retail dvd, and if you can't do that. Then use it until you have the monieees to pay for it. I think that those who use any Adobe software for work purposes will end up buying the software after they've accumulated enough money for it.

But in the competitive world of business, cutting corners where possible helps. Sometimes customers ask us why our prices are higher in certain things, and we have to explain to them that we're not running out of our garage with downloaded copies of our software. Sometimes they understand, sometimes they don't.

P.S. I agree with pirating some software. Like say you have Photoshop for Windows, but you want to use the OS X version as well, I'd hate to buy another license when I'm the one using it. So I agree with pirating it. Or upgrading to horrible new versions, CS3 to CS4 (I never did) but those people who did sure feel stupid now that CS5 is out with a box full of new features. Now that looks worth it. And pirating games, I'm 100% totally against pirating games. So much damn effort and work goes into that. From sound effects, to music score, to the programming, to the graphics, to the sketching, to the acting, so much damn effort goes into that. I hate when people pirate games. HATE IT. HATE IT. HATE IT.

arithma

@beezer: So games get more effort done into them when Adobe software doesn't?

To everyone: Don't ride an ethical high horse. It's pointless.
Let's sit neck to neck trying to serve customers for money. Let me see you using open source and compete.

xterm

1- Piracy is here to stay, it's a part of the system. Without piracy, commercial software would not exist. Weird huh?
2- Open Source Software is a viable alternative to piracy. In fact in some aspects, there are some open source software that demolish commercial software in terms of power.
3- In certain aspects of software development in the business world, you will not be able to compete with people that are using pirated products if you do not use pirated products yourself (assuming you can't afford the license). Think Microsoft oriented development.
4- The concept of "If it's not available in OSS, do it yourself" is a stupid argument. When you're trying to make money off of X, you don't want to spend time developing Y or altering an existing OSS version of Y so that it would assist you in creating X.

Joe

Let me see you using open source and compete.

Here are exactly the tools used by my company (operating a commercial website):

- Ubuntu for desktops
- Debian on servers
- Apache for a webserver
- PHP
- PostgreSQL for Databases
- I use Vim for development, others use jEdit and some use Netbeans.
- Git for version control
- OpenERP for internal organization
- Redmine as a public bug tracker
- We needed an upload site (a la Rapidshare) a colleague spent one week developing one internally (no open source one suited our needs).
- Sphinx as a search engine.
- Pygment for syntax coloration.
- A python server to run OpenERP
- A Ruby server to run Redmine.

All of these are open source. Not only are we competitive but we're generating over 500 00 euros per year in turnover. (with a 200%+ growth rate - 170 000 euros in 2008). Actually our ability to cut cost by using open source software (often hacked to suit our needs) is what makes us competitive.

I'll even go further by saying that we sell books; the content of our books is published under a creative common license (anyone can reproduce). We even distribute free pdf versions of the books we're selling.

O'reilly Media is one of the most important computer books publisher in the world. Almost all their content is free (Tim O'reilly, the founder, is actually on of the founders of the open source movement).

Red Hat does over 700 million$ a year from selling an open source product. IBM did 18 billion dollars from its Linux business in 2008 (one of the worst financial crisis of the last 10 years). A huge part of Google codes are open source.

Freelancers get super paid too. Richard Stallman was paid over 250$/hour for his consulting business. And this guy is a free software extremist. (He won't even use a web browser !!)

Many things could be argued about the quality of open source, but don't say that you cannot be competitive with it!!

At the same time, we just bought our FIRST software licenses for a security software called LastPass. If you can afford a commercial software and have no satisfying open source alternatives, you shouldn't be stubborn either

beezer

@arithma
I'm saying upgrades in versions most of the time are a rip off. and yes, I believe the teams making games are bigger than the ones that handle let's say photoshop only. I could be wrong. would love to compare them honestly.

nuclearcat

Same thing. VISP - we develop our own routers, NAS'es, wireless, proxies, .
Sure desktops turning now to be 100% open-source, but we are facing minor problems with GDI printers and scanners on last remaining sub-division.

Practically 97% of network is opensource. 1% i can give for Cisco switches, and 1% for few Cisco routers _just because GDS needs serials_ and Ogero also need some vendor-specific interface, and 1% for Lebanese accounting system (ugly by the way).
The savings by using opensource just HUGE. Let's say some other ISP's paid 25k$ for Sun Messaging suite, for example.

rolf

nuclearcat wroteand 1% for Lebanese accounting system (ugly by the way).

Very ugly, built on MS Access... yuck...

arithma

I am talking about small time teams like us. Not established international companies. Don't get me wrong, if there was a decent alternative to Flash CS5 (which can easily be out performed) I would step in immediately at least for a try out. However I will not feel guilty for using Windows 7 because of ethical issues. Still that doesn't stop me from being interested in Linux and the other open source technologies.

PS: You put Linus Tarvolds and Richard Stallman in the same category. One is an open source advocate, the other is an extremist, respectively.

Joe

Is it so hard to see that the high availability of open source programs should be thought of as an alternative to piracy?

Our problem is not with niche markets using specific softwares (though this issue could also be addressed). The main problem with piracy is the plethora of people using cracked copies of Microsoft products when there are open source alternatives.

Starting by Windows. Can you believe that Windows rival (Ubuntu) is free (as in free beer), yet most people would still go for piracy?

And about Windows specific development, xterm was arguing that piracy could be accepted. It's like saying I steal luxury cars so I could sell better engines.

But what is the debate here? Stealing is bad AND against the law, no discussion. What Open Source advocates are saying is "don't worry, there are alternatives. It might not be what you're used to, but people are making a living out of it".

Open Source is far from ideal, but it gives chance to people who cannot afford the big guys. Can you imagine if you had to buy an Oracle license for every website you build? What about other products like webservers, compilers, debuggers, interpreters and the like?

It is funny, you're arguing that only "established international companies" can benefit from open source, while we're arguing the exact opposite. Today I can have a website up and running without buying a single license. From the OS to the already developed CMS (or framework). Isn't it a true opportunity for freelancers and startups?

PS You are right about Torvalds vs Stallman. Though a lot of things could be said about it, it should be done in another thread as this is getting too much off-topic. Here's an article I wrote a while back about the subject.

xterm

rahmu wroteAnd about Windows specific development, xterm was arguing that piracy could be accepted. It's like saying I steal luxury cars so I could sell better engines.

Hey now! I said no such thing, i was merely stating the reason for piracy in certain scenarios.

arithma

The thing I hate the most in any argumentation is using incomplete analogies.
To copy the whole analogy into cars, imagine there was someone in Lebanon making copies of Bentley's, exact replicas and for much less money. It is illegal to buy one and some could argue unethical. Everybody has a bentley now, should I abstain?

Kassem

rahmu wroteIt is funny, you're arguing that only "established international companies" can benefit from open source, while we're arguing the exact opposite. Today I can have a website up and running without buying a single license. From the OS to the already developed CMS (or framework). Isn't it a true opportunity for freelancers and startups?

I wouldn't want to have a website running off a CMS like Joomla or Drupal. A web developer writes his own code, and uses open-source code for specific tasks like using Sphinx for a search engine. But seriously, if I got Joomla, a theme to make it look good, and then got the content from my client and there you go, the site is done! How long would it take me to build these website? How much would I charge for it? How much flexibility do I have to work with? It's just not right, and those open source CMS's were not made for web developers to use. Its audience are the end-users who cannot write their own code, and need a ready-built solution.

arithma wroteDon't get me wrong, if there was a decent alternative to Flash CS5 (which can easily be out performed) I would step in immediately at least for a try out.

Same here! Anyone who has worked with Flash CS4/5 knows that it's a pain in the ass. But at the same time it is indispensable. The open-source alternatives are okey (again, FlashDevelop is AWESOME!) but they would slow down the workflow. There is not GUI to assist you in designing your assets, there's no library to export assets from...etc. If only FlashDevelop had a GUI, I would definitely give up on Flash CS5 (it takes up to 3 minutes to run!!)

beezer

I'm sorry, but you can't hold an argument on comparing open source when you're talking about actual operating systems.

Sure, there's different OS's to install. Ubuntu, *nix, and BSD, and blah blah blah.
But when you do go that way. You are pretty much forced to go open source. And if you ever need specific software you won't find it for that operating system.

Everyone uses GIMP as the prime example, but there are no other examples. Sure, there's a great selection of calculators, word processors, pbx's and such. But if you're building a circuit board and have tools that plug in through USB, you won't find those drivers, or the software. If you need to do something specific to the OS, you'll have to google, search forums, and ask around. When with OSX or Windows really, you could ask your next door neighbor.

I agree with open source alternatives on Windows and OS X and hold an argument that some are equivelant. But open source operating systems are not more "leet" and are not practical to the everyday person. It's great for that dot matrix printer that I've had since 1990. Until I see hardware with stickers saying "*Nix Compatible" I don't think open source OS' will be put to mainstream use. I also remember a study where it stated that switching from pirated software to licensed software would cost less money and time than switching from pirated software to open source software.

Joe

arithma wroteThe thing I hate the most in any argumentation is using incomplete analogies.
To copy the whole analogy into cars, imagine there was someone in Lebanon making copies of Bentley's, exact replicas and for much less money. It is illegal to buy one and some could argue unethical. Everybody has a bentley now, should I abstain?

Not only is it unethical, but you'll have even less excuses if there are alternative cars made legally and given away to you for free. These cars are not less powerful, just different because people around you aren't aware of them (they're hooked on pirated Bentleys remember?).

Let's take a very real life example. A lot of people are corrupt in Lebanon. This is how they get things done, make some side money, get favours (yerba7o jmileh), ...

Would you be corrupt?

Even if you would, I guess you will never argue that this is the right thing to do. And you'd never accuse people who aren't to 'ride the ethical horse'

chosen2k

long live the piratebay ! **** the RIAA, and **** MPAA

Seriously give some credit for the crackers.
I know the coders go to extremes to code a good software, and i bet a good percentage of them are the ones who leave vulnerabilities to crack it and leak it on warez.
Because in the end, when the new "photoshop" or whatever is released the credit goes to "adobe" and not the ppl who actually coded it. So in a way crackers are being the virtual robin hoods of this generation.

Furthermore cracking/reverse engineering is not an easy task. So keep up the good work crackers !

To answer the question, answered many times before me: No warez are not allowed :)

nuclearcat

Robin Hood?
Strange, that this Robin Hoods surrounded by porno banners, trojans, viruses.
Just because it is a crime, and there is no good will behind. It is same as to say about thief stealing from woman bags, when he gives penny to starving kid, that he is Robin Hood.
They can do very nice job code by coding software for space research, graphic demos (4K intro, heh) and etc.
OSS at the end! Leave proprietary alone.... let them die.

Piracy fueling them and making stronger multinational corporations, and killing small companies.

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