Hey all,

Shouldn't there be a linux distribution server for lebanon? kernel updates, software updates, that takes a lot of connection to dl! And since there is IMO a growing community of linuxers in lebanon, why isn't there a server /repository for at least the main distros? Do you think its feasible? and would it make a difference in the current network situation in lebanon ( i mean could we be connected to it without bouncing off a sattelite or somewhere and returning to lebanon?)

Im thinking that maybe universities should start setting up servers and allocating bandwidth for a repository or something. There should be more advertising (especially from educational institutions) for linux/unix and the like IMHO. cuz most people in lebanon have never even heard of linux (eg windows = computer).
Your connection is capped to it's advertised limit at first contact in the central office. Something about DSLAM ports of a DSL chain, (I am no expert, I've learned about this here on the forum).
You raise a very important point: Universities must have their own networks that mimic the internet and be accessible from the outside. Universities must be connected to each other. And they should be providing the basis for technological advancement and appraisal of the situation locally.
If you want to change, it could very well start at the university.
Agreed, it is the universities role to promote linux use. Not only for home use, let's face it, it is not the most interesting field. I got in touch with some old friends from USJ that are in software engineering. Basically, everything they're taught is to use .NET and other Microsoft technologies. At best, they are aware that MS SQL has one big contender called Oracle.

Introducing business solutions based on open source software like Linux but also Apache, PHP, MySQL, PostgreSQL, OpenERP, Adampiere, Joomla, Drupal, Python, FreeBSD (and the BSD family), just to name a few, should come from universities first.

However, setting up an Ubuntu repository wouldn't be a priority in my opinion. What is more important is to set up distribution channels of free software that would be available for home use. In Lebanon getting free software is really difficult because it is only available online. Pirated copies of proprietary software are available everywhere for less than 1$, why couldn't it be the same for free software? Furthermore, it would be legal!
Agreed, it is the universities role to promote linux use. Not only for home use, let's face it, it is not the most interesting field. I got in touch with some old friends from USJ that are in software engineering. Basically, everything they're taught is to use .NET and other Microsoft technologies. At best, they are aware that MS SQL has one big contender called Oracle.

Introducing business solutions based on open source software like Linux but also Apache, PHP, MySQL, PostgreSQL, OpenERP, Adampiere, Joomla, Drupal, Python, FreeBSD (and the BSD family), just to name a few, should come from universities first.

However, setting up an Ubuntu repository wouldn't be a priority in my opinion. What is more important is to set up distribution channels of free software that would be available for home use. In Lebanon getting free software is really difficult because it is only available online. Pirated copies of proprietary software are available everywhere for less than 1$, why couldn't it be the same for free software? Furthermore, it would be legal!
100% Agree.
yea what's up with windows-only programming?! Portablity is the future! programming just for windows is like living in a small glass house and thinking its the universe!

Anyway, I'm gonna be discussing these issues with the geeks and the CS department at my uni as soon as this vacation ends.

I agree with you that setting up a ubuntu server is not the first priority, but should be a mere consequence of what is. It is about educating people (especially those in the field!) about the possibilities out there! Then at least it would be in the hands of the student/engineer to do the stupid choices, hehe :-)
Windows is not a small glass house, it's a house so big and so thick it is easy to ignore anything else going around. Moreover in today's world dominated by interpreted languages (like Java, Python or C#), portability is not as much a concern as it used to be. Even the .NET interpreter was ported to Linux.

But still, sometimes Linux will be most suited for the job and it is sad to see that there few (if any) professionals in Lebanon who have enough expertise to deliver these solutions to businesses.

I could mention two particular tools we use at work that are not only superior to their market competitors but also have a far better integration and compatibility with Unix, I'm talking about the Apache web server and git the version control system (far better than SVN in my experience).

If we want to promote Linux I still maintain that we have to begin by training more and more engineers and CS graduate to feel comfortable in a Linux environment. Only then will we resolve Linux's main drawbacks in home use: poor hardware support and lack of choice in applications.
rahmu wroteBut still, sometimes Linux will be most suited for the job and it is sad to see that there few (if any) professionals in Lebanon who have enough expertise to deliver these solutions to businesses.
You'll be surprised how many companies in lebanon have EE solutions deployed on linux. from an educational and personal perspective you'd be correct, but from a business perspective, lebanese are quite as capable (and might i add even more in some cases) in terms of IT, be it development, administration or what not.
xterm wrote
rahmu wroteBut still, sometimes Linux will be most suited for the job and it is sad to see that there few (if any) professionals in Lebanon who have enough expertise to deliver these solutions to businesses.
You'll be surprised how many companies in lebanon have EE solutions deployed on linux. from an educational and personal perspective you'd be correct, but from a business perspective, lebanese are quite as capable (and might i add even more in some cases) in terms of IT, be it development, administration or what not.
Well I am positively surprised to hear this. When I was looking for an internship last summer I didn't find any. The company I ended up working for a company using Microsoft products exclusively. They sell a business software developed internally on VB, running on Windows Server and using MS SQL as a DB.

Even though they are one of the leading company in their field, with growing expansion in the Middle East, Europe and the Gulf countries, most of the guys there didn't know about Linux or didn't really take it seriously. They were so blinded by Microsoft that they referred to MS SQL simply by 'SQL', and considered that the only alternatives would be Visual Foxpro or MS Access (both Microsoft products).

Last I heard they were training their employees on the .NET platform.
xterm wrote
rahmu wroteBut still, sometimes Linux will be most suited for the job and it is sad to see that there few (if any) professionals in Lebanon who have enough expertise to deliver these solutions to businesses.
You'll be surprised how many companies in lebanon have EE solutions deployed on linux. from an educational and personal perspective you'd be correct, but from a business perspective, lebanese are quite as capable (and might i add even more in some cases) in terms of IT, be it development, administration or what not.
This is interesting. Can you give us more of this insight, like examples of companies, particular technologies, or anything else. The thing is, if we get the ability of creating a reputation of high quality IT people, we would all benefit out of it and the business will flourish. We are a services country anyway, and this is the natural transition.
For the people that do not like long posts, development companies that most probably use linux as their base operating system for production:

ElementN, CME Offshore, Murex, Netways, Roxana, CCE, Acteos and more.

IT Solutions related (I do not follow these companies) : Secure Plus

For the people who want details.

rahmu and arithma,

The reason what i said seems surprising to you is because the Lebanese market is full of development companies that target medium to low level businesses. To get the obvious out of the way, concerning web development the majority of the companies use one of the following in terms of backend technology:

- ASP
- ASP.NET (Mostly VB.NET as a language)
- ASP.NET MVC (Minority)
- PHP (Incredibly popular, plain no framework)

The reason these technologies are popular is simply because, they are popular worldwide and the majority of the labor already knows one or more of these technologies. Websites/apps built using these technologies are usually cheap. (How many of you have taken personal projects for cheap using one of these technologies?).

Side Note: What bothers me is that two of the largest web frameworks are rarely (if never) being used in lebanon. Ruby on Rails and Django.

When you jump to larger level businesses such as Offshore Companies, Companies that implement online banking and whatnot you'll find teams that have a strong capabilities in enterprise level architectures and technologies such as Java EE. Ofcourse its counter part is the .NET Framework with companies proving quite capable of developing enterprise applications using one or a combination of WPF/WCF/WF/WSS or simply BizTalk.

The question as to "why EE ?" is not one i can answer in a couple of lines and i'm not one to vouch for it for personal use but i'll play the devil's advocate for now and say that frameworks like Struts/Spring/Seam and the lot have proven to be quite powerful to handle incredibly large web applications. Clearly we can't forget the application servers where these frameworks get hosted such as jboss, websphere, weblogic and glassfish.
You will rarely find any company developing for these frameworks, deploying the applications servers on anything but linux/unix.

In fact, not too long ago before our last project started (.net) , I had all the developers use Linux as their base operating systems, which is also something other offshore companies are doing.

Finally, concerning business applications targeting desktop, it's quite clear that the majority if not all companies in lebanon use Microsoft Windows as their end-user desktop Operating System so it's not quite strange that they'd be using technologies that target this OS. Here's a possible list of technologies:

- VB
- .NET (C#/VB.NET)
- PowerBuilder
- Foxpro
- Delphi
- Delphi.NET
- Adobe Air (Recently)

P.S.: Anything i said in this post is not exhaustive, I clearly have missed quite a bit of information and some this information might be wrong or misleading. Take it with a grain of salt.
For the people who want details.

rahmu and arithma,
Thanks for taking the time ;)
The reason what i said seems surprising to you is because the Lebanese market is full of development companies that target medium to low level businesses. To get the obvious out of the way, concerning web development the majority of the companies use one of the following in terms of backend technology:

- ASP
- ASP.NET (Mostly VB.NET as a language)
- ASP.NET MVC (Minority)
- PHP (Incredibly popular, plain no framework)

The reason these technologies are popular is simply because, they are popular worldwide and the majority of the labor already knows one or more of these technologies. Websites/apps built using these technologies are usually cheap. (How many of you have taken personal projects for cheap using one of these technologies?).

Side Note: What bothers me is that two of the largest web frameworks are rarely (if never) being used in lebanon. Ruby on Rails and Django.
You talk about web development, I have a question about web servers. Who has a majority in the Lebanese market? Apache is a world wide leader (with 60%+ of the market share), but it is also tightly linked to Django, RoR and of course PHP. The technologies you talk about (mainly .NET) would imply a large presence of IIS. My question is, how's the pair Apache/linux rate on the Lebanese web server market? Do you have info?

When you jump to larger level businesses such as Offshore Companies, Companies that implement online banking and whatnot you'll find teams that have a strong capabilities in enterprise level architectures and technologies such as Java EE. Ofcourse its counter part is the .NET Framework with companies proving quite capable of developing enterprise applications using one or a combination of WPF/WCF/WF/WSS or simply BizTalk.

The question as to "why EE ?" is not one i can answer in a couple of lines and i'm not one to vouch for it for personal use but i'll play the devil's advocate for now and say that frameworks like Struts/Spring/Seam and the lot have proven to be quite powerful to handle incredibly large web applications. Clearly we can't forget the application servers where these frameworks get hosted such as jboss, websphere, weblogic and glassfish.
You will rarely find any company developing for these frameworks, deploying the applications servers on anything but linux/unix.
Another question: how much of these applications (large scale JEE/.NET) are developed in Lebanon? Do you have troubles finding such developers in Lebanon?

Say I develop a business app running Linux. What are my chances that the client's sysadmin has the skills to maintain it? I'm not asking theoretically, but rather from your experience, are sysadmins in Lebanon at least vaguely familiar with Unix systems?
In fact, not too long ago before our last project started (.net) , I had all the developers use Linux as their base operating systems, which is also something other offshore companies are doing.
Do you have any experience with the Mono platform? Is it stable enough?


Anyway, thanks for the post man, very informative.
rahmu wroteYou talk about web development, I have a question about web servers. Who has a majority in the Lebanese market? Apache is a world wide leader (with 60%+ of the market share), but it is also tightly linked to Django, RoR and of course PHP. The technologies you talk about (mainly .NET) would imply a large presence of IIS. My question is, how's the pair Apache/linux rate on the Lebanese web server market? Do you have info?
With the technologies i listed, it's highlighly unlikely (even for php) that companies are using apache, IIS works fine for the targetted business level. Like i said, it's much easier (and cheaper) to find labor that, to answer your question, can administer IIS/WinServ, rather than Apache/Linux. It's not inexistant, but it's quite rare to find a medium level business hosting their apps locally on linux.
Another question: how much of these applications (large scale JEE/.NET) are developed in Lebanon? Do you have troubles finding such developers in Lebanon?
Quite a few, Orange, Sword, ElementN, Murex and much more are using JEE. Netways and our company (which i will refrain naming if you don't mind) and alot more are developing large scale .NET applications.
Say I develop a business app running Linux. What are my chances that the client's sysadmin has the skills to maintain it? I'm not asking theoretically, but rather from your experience, are sysadmins in Lebanon at least vaguely familiar with Unix systems?
I've had my share when dealing with lebanese sysadmins that are quite competent in linux/unix. In fact, if the client "wants" your app, chances are he already has a decent sysadmin.
Do you have any experience with the Mono platform? Is it stable enough?
Not on the production level. I've played around with it quite alot and it does the job just fine. It's a Novell effort, It's open source; It's great. With care, you'll be capable of implementing portable applications using the .NET framework. (Note: With care)

There is a large chance that i will be using Monotouch for our next project, though Monotouch is a little bit behind compared to Mono (and they're not exactly the same thing).
Interesting thread.

Good to know, that there are companies in Lebanon that utilize Linux.
In fact, not too long ago before our last project started (.net) , I had all the developers use Linux as their base operating systems, which is also something other offshore companies are doing.
This is a positive surprise!
I assumed Linux is used as servers, but never as desktop.

But, regarding home usage, is there actually a tangible user base? I mean, are there people who use the os full-time for regular tasks?
To take it further, do they "play" with scripts, edit config files, customize their workspaces, etc?
Before discovering this forum, I had never seen one.

And I agree with what's been said about universities as a starting point. Just a simple introduction is enough. The students will do the rest by themeselves.
But, the problem is that a lot of students think commercially. They think "if I learn Linux will I find a job?" or "I need to get some Microsoft Certificate diploma thing". For them .NET is the only choice.
That's the biggest hurdle...
... Only then will we resolve Linux's main drawbacks in home use: poor hardware support and lack of choice in applications.
To be accurate, it's not Linux that has poor hardware support, but it's the manufacturers that neglect it, most famously ATI and Nvidea. That said, the open source ATI drivers are working great for me.
As for applications, I don't think there's a lack of choice. I have always found what I've wanted.
But, I'm not into photo/video editing, so maybe I haven't looked for everything.
Actually, the only program I like to see is an Excel alternative. OO.o Calc or Gnumeric still have a way to go.

BTW, Regarding cross-platform development, there's also QT from Nokia. That should get a mention as well.

I've also tried Python and wxPython, but deploying it for Windows machines that do not have the Python interpreter was a bit messy...
In terms of portable UI, your best bet for a "decent" UI is to use Adobe Air. You can go the Mono/.NET route with GTK# but it's totally different that Adobe Air. Lately the hype is all about building UI using a declarative approach, being Flex, WPF/Silverlight or the lot.

It's becoming rather tedious and annoying to build UI with glue code. Data Binding is growing more and more popular, case in point WPF and Flex. Heck even Google is moving/moved into a declarative UI with GWT 2.0, though they failed in terms of data binding assuming that dependency injection is enough as a first step.
razm wroteBut, regarding home usage, is there actually a tangible user base? I mean, are there people who use the os full-time for regular tasks?
To take it further, do they "play" with scripts, edit config files, customize their workspaces, etc?
Before discovering this forum, I had never seen one.
Yes, yes and yes. Though us being 'geeks' and all, we do not socialize enough to see what's out there. I do have a couple of friends whom might as just wear an "I <3 Linux" T-Shirt and walk around wearing just that.
razm wroteAnd I agree with what's been said about universities as a starting point. Just a simple introduction is enough. The students will do the rest by themeselves.
But, the problem is that a lot of students think commercially. They think "if I learn Linux will I find a job?" or "I need to get some Microsoft Certificate diploma thing". For them .NET is the only choice.
That's the biggest hurdle...
As much as this true, i do believe that there's a more important priority in terms of educational improvement that the universities should take into consideration especially in terms of the Computer Science curriculum. LAU Byblos's Computer Science curriculum has an Operating System course (elective) that covers a great deal of 'basics', I don't know about the other universities.

Finally, Linux should remain Linux, a gem for the worthy. I for one will not care whether or not John Doe or Jane Smith 'convert'.

P.S.: Did you know that the first time my wife ever touched a computer, it was one with Red Hat 2.0 installed? I took it as an opportunity back then (around 1995-1996) and taught her how to move around within the file system.
Waaa so much to say!!
This is a positive surprise!
I assumed Linux is used as servers, but never as desktop.

But, regarding home usage, is there actually a tangible user base? I mean, are there people who use the os full-time for regular tasks?
To take it further, do they "play" with scripts, edit config files, customize their workspaces, etc?
Before discovering this forum, I had never seen one.
Here! I haven't touched Windows for years. To be honest, there are some things I miss, but I have to admit I'm having a blast with Ubutnu.
And I agree with what's been said about universities as a starting point. Just a simple introduction is enough. The students will do the rest by themeselves.
But, the problem is that a lot of students think commercially. They think "if I learn Linux will I find a job?" or "I need to get some Microsoft Certificate diploma thing". For them .NET is the only choice.
That's the biggest hurdle...
First get the proper working force, then the jobs will appear. Not only regular jobs, but a strong trend of entrepreneurship might develop. The open source movement as a whole is a very motivating one. New ideas will appear.
To be accurate, it's not Linux that has poor hardware support, but it's the manufacturers that neglect it, most famously ATI and Nvidea. That said, the open source ATI drivers are working great for me.
As for applications, I don't think there's a lack of choice. I have always found what I've wanted.
But, I'm not into photo/video editing, so maybe I haven't looked for everything.
Actually, the only program I like to see is an Excel alternative. OO.o Calc or Gnumeric still have a way to go.
Linux has come a long way since its dark days in hardware support. A distribution like Ubuntu should be running on any recent computer. But I still have troubles finding a way to use it with iPod Touch. And my camera is not recognized (Fortunately I have a working SD card reader).
Yes, yes and yes. Though us being 'geeks' and all, we do not socialize enough to see what's out there. I do have a couple of friends whom might as just wear an "I <3 Linux" T-Shirt and walk around wearing just that.
Here again! I do not have such a tee shirt but I have some Tux gear.


Final thought,
Finally, Linux should remain Linux, a gem for the worthy. I for one will not care whether or not John Doe or Jane Smith 'convert'.
Because of its open source nature, Linux would benefit a considerable lot when its number of users increase. This is not inherent to open source (proprietary software benefit a lot from having a big user base too), but it is definitely an asset. I want more people using Linux so that my Linux experience would be better.
Because of its open source nature, Linux would benefit a considerable lot when its number of users increase. This is not inherent to open source (proprietary software benefit a lot from having a big user base too), but it is definitely an asset. I want more people using Linux so that my Linux experience would be better.
Thats what i love about the opensource approach.

And... I dunno, but well i'm into sound.. been there for quite a while now.. And since ive turned to linux (ubuntu mainly), ive been able to find a large choice of software for my uses.

I admit that there are some programs which i wish could work under linux (ProTools mainly), but i've been able to find a lot of replacements for all software i used on windows.

As for hardware drivers, i've installed ubuntu on quite a few computers and everytime I do, everything works out of the box!

And i have to say that im enjoying working on multimedia in linux for its crazy stability -- the thing never crashes! And, most importantly, what i like is the customization ability thats there. I was able to reach a latency (audio) of less than 1 ms!!! where else can u do that!

Anyway, all in all, I think linux has come a long way since early 2000's, and I have a feeling its going to be very mainstream in the near future (pc-wize).
Anyway, all in all, I think linux has come a long way since early 2000's, and I have a feeling its going to be very mainstream in the near future (pc-wize).
Linux is booming like never before in the business world. I am currently looking for a job, and am noticing the huge demand (in Europe) for linux/unix skills.

And far as home use is concerned, Linux (mainly Ubuntu) has around 1~2 % of the market share, and a vast majority of linux users still use Windows as dual boot. However there are some indicators that look nice:

- The yearly growth of linux adoption is the highest in the market (around 80% for the last three years).
- Google is going to release a linux distro on the market (Chrome OS). It will definitely add more users but more importantly it will give it worldwide exposure, so more and more users will be aware that there are alternatives to Windows to the PC.
Though us being 'geeks' and all, we do not socialize enough to see what's out there.
True.
Finally, Linux should remain Linux, a gem for the worthy. I for one will not care whether or not John Doe or Jane Smith 'convert'.
Because of its open source nature, Linux would benefit a considerable lot when its number of users increase. This is not inherent to open source (proprietary software benefit a lot from having a big user base too), but it is definitely an asset. I want more people using Linux so that my Linux experience would be better.
Exactly!
- Google is going to release a linux distro on the market (Chrome OS). It will definitely add more users but more importantly it will give it worldwide exposure, so more and more users will be aware that there are alternatives to Windows to the PC.
I'm a bit skeptical about Google Chrome OS. I think restrictive user interfaces will make users dumber...
AFAIK, it is not designed to be an alternative to Windows or the others, although people who only use their computers for browsing may "convert".
And far as home use is concerned, Linux (mainly Ubuntu) has around 1~2 % of the market share, and a vast majority of linux users still use Windows as dual boot. However there are some indicators that look nice:
If only Ubuntu would change it's default brown theme. That would be helpful :)
I'm a bit skeptical about Google Chrome OS. I think restrictive user interfaces will make users dumber...
AFAIK, it is not designed to be an alternative to Windows or the others, although people who only use their computers for browsing may "convert".
You said it, Chrome OS is not designed to be an alternative to Windows. It's a market tester so Google be prepared for cloud computing (that is gonna boom in 5 years). Wait till you have all sorts of steady webapps available ( a la google docs) and you'll see the true benefits of Chrome.
If only Ubuntu would change it's default brown theme. That would be helpful :)
This should be done for the next version (scheduled for the end of the month), the Lucid Lynx. Light should replace the old brown Human theme.