bermudapineapple
I want to talk about the social norms in Lebanon. I'm not talking about religion, politics, tradition, family, or any of that other deep, complex stuff. I'm talking about the basic, face-value interactions between people. I have lived and studied both in the cities and in the suburbs and villages of Lebanon and I've made similar observations at all these different areas.
What I've come to realize in Lebanon, throughout all the years I've been here and all the different types of areas I've lived in, is that people in Lebanon are obsessed with their image, their prestige, and their reputations. People in Lebanon come off as uptight prudes who have nothing better to do than let you know, somehow, that they're better than you. These aren't just my personal observations, though.
I wish I was just ranting but I have asked several people who have come to Lebanon either for a vacation or just to study (I travel a lot and thus meet many people who visited Lebanon) and they all give me generally the same answer. Almost all of them tell me that the social atmosphere in Lebanon is aggressive and extremely defensive. They tell me that Lebanese people live as if the wished they had eyes in the back of their heads. They tell me there is a lack of trust between people that is instead substituted with a sense of tension, bigotry, and selfishness between one another.
I'm not saying all Lebanese are like that. I'm generalizing in my post for the purpose of fostering discussion and not because I want to insult all Lebanese people. I definitely know a lot of Lebanese people who are some of the best people on this planet. But when I talk about "Lebanese," I talk about the average Lebanese person.
But this is basically what I see and what I hear. Do any of you witness such an attitude and have you ever had foreign friends that have told you the same?
rtp
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that"
- George Carlin
I have been saying the same thing for a long long time. Now am just hopping to ditch this place for good once and for all.
Lebanese are relatively uneducated and their tendency to question authority and norms are nearly non existent. Thus the sheep attitude, some seem to question but don't have the courage to go against society (who can blame them), so they end up living a lie. The Lebanese society is divided based on religion and political sect, and by nature the Lebanese society is a group based society more than an individual society. Thus, one's status in the social totem pole is very important. Even tho i stated that Lebanese are sheep, they are very cunning dressed sheep. Its the people that are corrupt and not the political leaders, the political leaders are simply a subset of the people. Its the people who seek "wasta" etc...
A foreign friend once told me that the Arabic language tune is too barbaric and once I looked from afar, I have to agree lol
ramy58
I'm only 15 but I can already see that kids at my age AND their parents behave like that. But of course those people aren't my friends.
NuclearVision
@rtp have your friend heard east European languages ?
rolf
I really don't know but I don't want to be in Lebanon. Many reasons:
- Economic market is limited and exploitation is rampant
- I've been there long enough not to find much new interesting stuff. In these case you normally go out of the city and explore what's around it. Yes there is nice stuff to explore, but you can't go very far (hint: Syria and Israel). Airlines are also running some kind of price fixing, and there are no cheap tickets to say Cyprus, or Jordan (a la Easyjet). Yet Greece can be had for relatively cheap - still not Easyjet stuff.
- Some bad experiences, which brings me to the "social norms". I really don't want to make generalizations, nor try to analize, I think it's fruitless. At some point you will always find someone who breaks the stereotype or does something that is beyond any kind of logic. So i'll just say I don't like the atmosphere there. If I'd want to go into more details, let's say that, quite often, anything can be construed as an excuse for someone to be agressive or lack respect towards you. That can keep you on the edge all the time, and it doesn't really help, that's not exactly what you need in Beirut.
There are different places in the world. I've heard that people in Paris can be quite anti-social, and it's true. And it's not a general rule either, but there are places where people are on average significantly more cool, polite and accessible than in Beirut.
Also let's not mix Beirut and Lebanon. I'm sure you guys are talking about Beirut.
rtwo2008
It's the same everywhere else but in smaller circles, not country-wide like Lebanon. But maybe that's because the size of Lebanon is a small circle compared to other countries.
NuclearVision
Are you guys suggesting that countries abroad are full of angles ? Guys I think you forgot that human beings are universal . ?
rtp
NuclearVision wroteAre you guys suggesting that countries abroad are full of angles ? Guys I think you forgot that human beings are universal . ?
No, we are suggesting that the tendency here are higher then other countries, just that. There are exceptions and there are all kind of people everywhere. The tendency for corrupt people, superficial etc... tend to be relatively higher in Lebanon, or at least that is the theory.
geekevo
Because Lebanon was always better than surrounding countries money wise. (pre/early oil years). It naturally had more middle class people and more rich people which probably created a sense of superiority for the people when they compared themselves to neighboring citizens. The sense of superiority made them always want to show that they are better and they exercised that need not only on foreigners but also on other Lebanese people. Thats what i think at least, this way of thought came from long ago it is not a thing of today.
NuclearVision
Guys I think you are exaggerating,such people exist everywhere, even in smallest unit of society, families, there are types of people, if you have couple of brothers/sisters, you'd notice they are different, some are kind some are Cupid, what do we call it, yes: طبع! that's my opinion : ), and I totally respect yours !
rolf
Yes human beings are the same but they are affected by the environment. Take, for example, some societies where it is OK to make racist remarks. If you're born in such a society you don't think much of it, until you live in another place, then you realize that it's not OK and may change your habits (if any) and tell others that it's not OK.
The living environment, stress, culture, traditions, and other things also affect behaviors. I believe that human beings to connect on a fundamental level, across cultures, but they don't behave the same in everything across the world, and that's why we are discussing this topic.
It's also a subjective topic, it has to be said.
NuclearVision
@rolf sure topics like racism and sexism ... Differ from a society to another. But here our fellow geeks were mentioning corruption, cupidity, superiority, those are way more universal and common.
eWizzard
tt400 wroteI want to talk about the social norms in Lebanon. I'm not talking about religion, politics, tradition, family, or any of that other deep, complex stuff.
By ignoring these critical factors, this topic is forced into a state of shallowness wherein ranting and bickering serve to vent off on effects, without stirring up intelligent discussions about causes, such as our glorious history of deeply-rooted religious discrimination, which I'm fairly certain that even the geeks here have had the pleasure of coming across... But who can blame you? LebGeeks is not made to be a place to discuss the ever-growing elephant in the room, so to speak.
NuclearVision wroteAre you guys suggesting that countries abroad are full of angles ? Guys I think you forgot that human beings are universal . ?
Yes, it seems that we've somehow forgotten. Please remind us how much the Swedes and the North Koreans have in common.
bermudapineapple
eWizzard wroteBut who can blame you? LebGeeks is not made to be a place to discuss the ever-growing elephant in the room, so to speak.
That was the whole point, yes. I'm aware that to forgo those aspects limits the conversation, but the mods around LebGeeks are very, very touchy about their rules and enjoy the "delete" button.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who at least admits Lebanese people do stand out in one way or another. To pin it on one issue would be difficult. The Lebanese milieu is one that arose out of complex factors. It is sad, nonetheless.
MrClass
Let me square things out. I've left Lebanon and I'm currently in UAE. I've been here for a shy more than 2 months and I already hear from other colleagues that most of the Lebanese people that they dealt with (at least those living in UAE) are snobby and self-centered.
Not bragging here, but I am far from this crappy attitude; my humble colleagues were scared shitless that a Lebanese person was joining the IT team (majority are indians).
I have been dealing with a lot of Lebanese people in Dubai. Many are friendly (even in top management); while others (even the interns) are not approachable and shallow. I give IT training to new joiners and work in IT service delivery, so I deal with plenty of people on a daily basis.
So what I noticed is the majority of the snobby people are Lebanese (and another arabian nationality situated in north Africa).
You can't believe how snobby they are until you live with different nationalities.
Dare I say working and socializing with Indians is amazing; their humbleness and dedication is unrivaled. I bet right now most of you are saying: Indian?? Gross! ---> that's the snobby part.
And for any Indian from South India, Happy Onam!
rolf
Yes, snubbish, or agressive, or generally "fuck-off"-ish, that's what I was saying - maybe it's the same thing using different terms.
Of course not everyone, we're just talking probability and averages here.
One thing I've noticed is that the "Lebanese hospitality" we sometimes take pride in can be a pretty superficial affair, in reality. I've seem more hospitality displayed from people who are reputed to be all the opposite, but of course without the Lebanese "sugar coating on top" and all the nice expressions we have just for that.
Lebanese aren't all what they think they are, in general, when compared to people from other countries, real people, and not stereotypes. This is not necessarily meant in a negative way, and it applies to people from other places as well.
Hey it may even apply to every one of us.
eWizzard wrote
Yes, it seems that we've somehow forgotten. Please remind us how much the Swedes and the North Koreans have in common.
This is a tempting question but I lack the time or motivation to list all the things a human being and another would have in common.
NuclearVision
The problem is that you've lived enough in Lebanon to see all types of people, and not enough abroad, so you're just theorizing.
@ewizzard remind me how much you've lived in Sweden or North Korea, if you haven't it's not fair to compare. I have never lived there, i suppose you mean that Sweden is more civilized(?) because they have more money ? Because they never had to engage a real war? Because it has one of the highest suicide rate? IMO this is fake civilization, people tend to be aggressive everywhere, suiciding isn't an aggressive act?
If you were to discuss social norms, human behavior, I would totally agree, but lebanese behavior ?xD
eWizzard
rolf wroteeWizzard wroteYes, it seems that we've somehow forgotten. Please remind us how much the Swedes and the North Koreans have in common.
This is a tempting question but I lack the time or motivation to list all the things a human being and another would have in common.
Here, I'll make it easier for you: since this thread is about social norms, you can start by simplifying the list down to basic human rights.
rolf
eWizzard wroterolf wroteeWizzard wroteYes, it seems that we've somehow forgotten. Please remind us how much the Swedes and the North Koreans have in common.
This is a tempting question but I lack the time or motivation to list all the things a human being and another would have in common.
Here, I'll make it easier for you: since this thread is about social norms, you can start by simplifying the list down to basic human rights.
That's a consequence of the political system in place. It's not social norms.
I don't know much about either the Swedish or the Korean society and culture, so I wouldn't be able to answer your question anyway, from a social perspective, but I'm sure there are things to be found in common.
Take for example somebody from Singapore and somebody from Lebanon (this is a case where I have a little more knowledge). The social similarities that you will find, regarding things such as women reputation and perception can be striking.
My opinion is that there are differences but there are similarities as well. In Lebanon, I was exposed to many stereotypes about other people. When I traveled a little out of Lebanon I was surprised by the similarities (which sometimes went against the stereotypes), and i'm betting you would be be too.
MrClass
NuclearVision wroteThe problem is that you've lived enough in Lebanon to see all types of people, and not enough abroad, so you're just theorizing.
@ewizzard remind me how much you've lived in Sweden or North Korea, if you haven't it's not fair to compare. I have never lived there, i suppose you mean that Sweden is more civilized(?) because they have more money ? Because they never had to engage a real war? Because it has one of the highest suicide rate? IMO this is a fake civilization, people tend to be aggressive everywhere, suiciding isn't an aggressive act?
If you were to discuss social norms, human behavior, I would totally agree, but lebanese behavior ?xD
Sweden never had to engage a real war?? Did you know the Swedes are originally Vikings? Fake civilization? How can you describe Vikings as fake?