bit of help concerning LAU

hackable

hey people ! Just a fast question for an LAU graduate with a computer engineering degree if possible. Going into LAU next year ( terminal at the moment ) and majoring in computer engineering ; just wanted to ask whether it is possible to choose to focus more on software rather than hardware in the 3rd - 4th year or do you take them equally at all time? Thank you in advance.

Leonedes

*takes a deep, deep breath*

Alright, if you are interested in software, STAY AWAY FROM LAU. As a Computer Engineer, you will have to study many fields, and unfortunately, software is not one of them. At LAU, you get the chance to dig deep into hardware, telecommunication and networking ONLY. The only pure software courses that are available today are Engineering Programming (Java), Data Structures (Java), Operating Systems (Almost no coding at all), COE Application (Using java for mobile apps --> Android) and Software Engineering (Any language you prefer), oh and Database Systems where you spend most of the time learning theory and spend a week on SQL >_>.

Here check out the Computer Engineering flowchart and see for yourself.

Also, they have excellent professors in the fields of hardware, electronics and telecommunication. Unfortunately, they do not have a single software engineer in their faculty! They are still in the process of recruiting someone, and they have been looking for a long, long time.

However, do not think these few courses I just mentioned are enough. If you think you are going into this for the software, you will have a really bad time finding courses you would be interested in. After the third year, you will start to have to take "Technical Electives", which are the major courses that you wish to pursue, and are divided into tracks. Take a look at the list of tracks and you'll understand what I'm talking about: No software courses! (Scroll down and select curriculum starting fall 2009, and scroll down to the bottom).

Finally, don't get me wrong, the department of Computer Engineering at LAU is in my opinion literally amazing. Its faculty are really skilled and are also "stars" in their fields. Most importantly, most of them truly take good care of students. But, they lack a "software guy" and well, if you're in it for the software, you will have a really hard time.

Kassem

They are still in the process of recruiting someone, and they have been looking for a long, long time.

Can I apply or do I really need a PhD that says "I never wrote code in my life"? I have yet to find a professor who is really a skilled programmer and would teach you more than reading a couple of books would.

What I'm trying to say is that if you're going to choose a university because they have a good software engineering program and skilled professors, then good luck finding one. School will not teach you anything significant beyond some theory - you will not be ready for a job once you graduate. You need to work your ass off on your own if you want to be a great programmer.

I lost count of how many times I've written the sentences above, but I think it's worth noting that so you wouldn't be misguided into your future career. And once again I'll say it: unless you dream about code at night, don't go for a career in software development (no I'm not exaggerating, I do dream about code in my sleep).

One last thing, since you're not going to learn anything special at the uni, save your money and go for the Lebanese University. From what I've seen, LU graduates in Computer Science and MIS are far better programmers than any other university (this is not based on any viable statistics, it's just a personal observation).

Ayman

@kassem I agree with you but you're a bit contradicting yourself and would like to point that out. First you mentioned that universities in general are useless for a successful career in programming beyond theoretical stuff, which is mostly true. Yet you're claiming in the end that Lebanese university graduates are better programmers than those of a different university. If university didn't make a significant difference, how were you able to reach that conclusion in the end then?

Now regarding theory. I believe solid theory is as important as the technical experience for a successful career. You could still learn that on your own too.

Leonedes

Kassem what you said is 10000% correct. However, while one should never depend on his university and should learn on his own once he gets the fundamental basics right, I strongly believe that even the bare minimum is not being provided and he would simply be wasting his time learning about things he isn't interested in.

Kassem

Ayman wrote@kassem I agree with you but you're a bit contradicting yourself and would like to point that out. First you mentioned that universities in general are useless for a successful career in programming beyond theoretical stuff, which is mostly true. Yet you're claiming in the end that Lebanese university graduates are better programmers than those of a different university. If university didn't make a significant difference, how were you able to reach that conclusion in the end then?

No I'm not really contradicting myself. Just because LU graduates are usually slightly better than others, doesn't mean they are great programmers and ready for a job. Of course not. It just happens that over the past few months, I've seen and talked to developers from several universities. The ones who kind of impressed me happened to be from LU. On the other hand, any student from any university in Lebanon who happens to invest time learning on his own would definitely be a better programmer than an LU graduate who solely depended on what is given to him in his courses.

Leonedes wroteKassem what you said is 10000% correct. However, while one should never depend on his university and should learn on his own once he gets the fundamental basics right, I strongly believe that even the bare minimum is not being provided and he would simply be wasting his time learning about things he isn't interested in.

I totally agree. There were a bunch of courses I've taken at the uni which I believe were nothing but a waste of time. Watching my Web Development professor struggling in writing a very basic HTML page is definitely a waste of time. Oh and by the way, that same professor is the head of the IT department in the Lebanese University - Hadath (Faculty of Economics)

Joe

@hackable: Why are you interested in software? If you just want to learn to code, don't go to uni! You can do a lot better on your own.

I still think that getting a college degree is important, but if you're only interested in programming, you don't need any diploma. You can do this online, on your own, and start working a lot earlier than if you waited for all these years. An engineering degree will give you great experience, but it's not the best choice when it comes to pure technical practice.

Unfortunately, I don't think that any university in Lebanon offers an engineering degree focusing on Software. Maybe ESIB/USJ, then again I'm not sure. Why won't you consider something in Computer Science?

@Kassem: I know amazing programmers that came out of virtually every school in Lebanon. The best Python programmer I know graduated from LAU. The best web developer I know in Lebanon graduated from Haigazian. I know a guy from ESIB who's an absolute freak when it comes to C++. And I know crappy programmers from each of these schools. I agree with Ayman, there's no correlation whatsoever between the school choice and the programming skills. As you said, it has more to do with personal traits than the reputation of your school.

Badieh

As an LAU computer science graduate, I can confirm that you can get somewhere if you work on yourself. You get all the core basics and more.

Now to the main point, I seriously don't see why would anyone gimp themselves. If you love software, then do computer science, otherwise stick with Computer Engineering. Going Computer Engineering while wanting to work as a programmer is simply a bad idea. You can get way better wages working in the telecommunication and networking fields. On the other hand, if what Leonedes said

Leonedes wroteAt LAU, you get the chance to dig deep into hardware, telecommunication and networking ONLY. The only pure software courses that are available today are Engineering Programming (Java), Data Structures (Java), Operating Systems (Almost no coding at all), COE Application (Using java for mobile apps --> Android) and Software Engineering (Any language you prefer), oh and Database Systems where you spend most of the time learning theory and spend a week on SQL >_>.

is true, then you will be more than fine in programming. If you learn the basics of OOP, data structures, and Database then you can program in almost any language. Learning the syntax of other programming languages is the easiest job.

University instructors lack the coding skills because they focus more on the theory side, however, LAU now is a lot different than 8 years ago. Now they do a lot of labs and workshops to put what you've learned into practice. So you don't end up graduating with only theory. :)

Leonedes

Badieh wroteOn the other hand, if what Leonedes said is true, then you will be more than fine in programming. If you learn the basics of OOP, data structures, and Database then you can program in almost any language. Learning the syntax of other programming languages is the easiest job.

You don't get the point, these 18 credits I mentioned are part of a 150 credit program. Tell me exactly when would he have time to learn the other basics which were not covered on his own? That is if he intends to keep a high GPA... Anyone can learn anything on his own, just not as much when he has 15-18 credits of courses on his back each and every semester for 4 years.

That being said, hackable asked a specific question about software at LAU, and all I'm saying is that if software is his only field of interest, stay away from computer engineering at LAU! Fairly simple!

xterm

Off Topic

Kassem wrote Can I apply or do I really need a PhD that says "I never wrote code in my life"? I have yet to find a professor who is really a skilled programmer and would teach you more than reading a couple of books would.

I'm a far better programmer than any of my university professors, but they are far better computer scientists than I'll ever be. Do not dismiss computer science academia as being equally important as (for example) 'Building a Scalable Web Application'; The existence of the latter is due to the result and hard work of the earlier.

Badieh

Leonedes wrote
Badieh wroteOn the other hand, if what Leonedes said is true, then you will be more than fine in programming. If you learn the basics of OOP, data structures, and Database then you can program in almost any language. Learning the syntax of other programming languages is the easiest job.
You don't get the point, these 18 credits I mentioned are part of a 150 credit program. Tell me exactly when would he have time to learn the other basics which were not covered on his own? That is if he intends to keep a high GPA... Anyone can learn anything on his own, just not as much when he has 15-18 credits of courses on his back each and every semester for 4 years.

That being said, hackable asked a specific question about software at LAU, and all I'm saying is that if software is his only field of interest, stay away from computer engineering at LAU! Fairly simple!

What other basics if I may ask?

Edit: I just like to add that I totally agree with Xterm :)

hackable

cool thank you for the fast responses; Now i am more lost in what to major in than ever ! :P

Ayman

hackable? wrotecool thank you for the fast responses; Now i am more lost in what to major in than ever ! :P

You don't have to be really lost. Think of what you love doing the most and find the major that can give you the knowledge/skill/opportunities to do it. If it is software that you love working with, then go for computer science or related major.

Leonedes

Badieh wrote
What other basics if I may ask?

The basics of actually writing a piece of code.

Badieh

Leonedes wrote
Badieh wrote
What other basics if I may ask?

The basics of actually writing a piece of code.

So let me get this right, you will finish computer programming, data structures, database, and android programming and still fail to write a piece of code?

Okay.... -_-

Leonedes

I'm not suppose to write Arabic on the forum, but this situation clearly depicts a "سأل مجرب وما تسأل حكيم".

Unfortunately, this is the current situation and it is a real serious issue. What's worse is that most students are simply "memorizing" code. The problem is there aren't any real coding exams. There was once an exam where coding was 30% of the grade in DS if I remember correctly. Consequently, students become worse as they advance to what might seem more advanced coding and the vicious cycle begins ...

It might seem hard to believe, but it really is the case and I cannot describe it more than this!

Badieh

hehehe I can closely relate to the "memorizing" of code, this was mainly because people were scared of the syntax, and the exams were actually written on paper. But now, the computer programming exams are done in the computer labs given a set of problems where they need to code it.

This is the case for Computer Science, I'm surprised to hear this isn't the case for the Engineers.

Leonedes

Truly is, computer engineering students neither have any programming labs nor any programming exams on computers.

Ayman

Leonedes wroteTruly is, computer engineering students neither have any programming labs nor any programming exams on computers.

Partially true. Programming exams don't have to be on the computer. On the contrary real problem solving is best done on paper. Who cares about the syntax when solving a problem. Once you solve it then you can then write it in your editor correctly and test it which any student should learn to do on their own because that is something trivial, including looking up documentation after all no one is supposed to memorize code but know how to compose it.

You can think of it just like musicians do. A musician creating a new piece of music never runs directly to his instrument and start playing as he is composing. They write down it down on paper, scratch, add, and think. And when done they play it.

Leonedes

Ayman wrote
Leonedes wroteTruly is, computer engineering students neither have any programming labs nor any programming exams on computers.
Partially true. Programming exams don't have to be on the computer. On the contrary real problem solving is best done on paper. Who cares about the syntax when solving a problem. Once you solve it then you can then write it in your editor correctly and test it which any student should learn to do on their own because that is something trivial, including looking up documentation after all no one is supposed to memorize code but know how to compose it.

You can think of it just like musicians do. A musician creating a new piece of music never runs directly to his instrument and start playing as he is composing. They write down it down on paper, scratch, add, and think. And when done they play it.

Completely irrelevant. When you get tested with multiple choice and true/false questions 99% of the time, you will never be taught how to code. You can learn on your own, and this has been previously mentioned, and learning on your own is not the question being asked.