Kassem
I've been working late very often over the past couple of months. I've actually been working late much of my employment period at the company I currently work for. I also work on weekends sometimes. I literally have no life outside the office. The thing is, I'm starting to feel under-paid. My managers appreciate my work and I get treated very well at the company. The only problem is that my salary is considerably low compared to what *I* believe is fair for my knowledge, skills and efforts. I could be wrong but I do have that feeling and I just cannot ignore it. I cannot take the idea off my mind and I'm not sure what's the right way of dealing with this issue. The way I'm handling it right now is by saying to myself: "Let's wait for the Christmas raise and see what happens then".
But until Christmas comes, how should I deal with it? I need to take it off my mind and focus on the projects I'm working on! And when Christmas comes, I plan to ask for a really good raise. But what if the management said "we cannot afford it"? Should I just leave and find another job? Or should I stay and try to ignore that feeling - which isn't working for me right now, obviously.
I keep getting approached by other companies but I've always dismissed them because I was very happy at my work. But now, things are starting to change, especially over the past 2 weeks. I really love my company but I hate the feeling of being "under-paid".
Any thoughts from more experienced members?
Nabs
Kassem, my friend, the question is: are you not getting paid enough, or you believe you are worth more all the sudden? Depending on the situation, the answer differs.
jsaade
This is the normal feeling of working and putting effort beyond what younare asked or obliged.
It is a dilema as if you work less you will feel that you have more potential and more to give.
Christmas is two months away.
Lower your working hours. Use the extra time for personal projects and research.
If you do not get a raise that you deserve search for a better position.
Send me your CV btw.
Kassem
Nabs wroteKassem, my friend, the question is: are you not getting paid enough, or you believe you are worth more all the sudden? Depending on the situation, the answer differs.
I do believe I'm worth more than I'm getting now. I even got offers that are very close to what I believe is fair for me. Moreover, my co-workers, especially those in my department, confirm that I deserve much more - this has probably made the feeling even worse.
jsaade wroteIt is a dilema as if you work less you will feel that you have more potential and more to give.
Yes exactly! The thing is that I'm currently 23. I believe that the few years to come (3-4 years) will define what I am and what I will end up being. I have the time and energy to work hard so it's only sane that I invest those assets on building the foundations of a successful career.
Nabs
Then, it's the feeling of greatness you're getting, You probably have dreams and hopes of your own, to head your very own company in a very short period of time. If that is, I'm afraid you won't be able to shake that feeling.
Kassem
Nabs wroteThen, it's the feeling of greatness you're getting, You probably have dreams and hopes of your own, to head your very own company in a very short period of time. If that is, I'm afraid you won't be able to shake that feeling.
Not exactly. I do not want to start my own company at least not in the coming 7-8 years. It's still too early. But yes, I have high expectations for my career and I'm tying my best to get to where I would feel good about myself.
Money hasn't been an issue for me and will not be in the short run. The thing is that I just want to feel being fairly rewarded for the value I give to the company. I think the problem is more psychological than economical.
MrClass
Hey Kassem. I totally understand your situation. I am also in this tight situation and it is driving me crazy. I am getting depressed about it and the worst part I have to wait for my contract expiry to re-negotiate the salary issue (which is several months later). Suddenly I got extra tasks at work and everyone expects me to finish them in time. Staying overtime to finish these tasks (with no extra payment) has got me exhausted and lifeless too. I even had to stop going to the gym (which I enjoyed) to make more time for work. I informed my boss about that, and informed me that everyone is in the same situation (but I doubt any one is doing the same as I am). Anyway, the only way I am surviving this shit is the fact that I know I am an important asset for the company/organization. I know if I leave, this organization will miss me dearly and will not function as well as when I am present. I hope you are in the same situation. When the boss says he/she appreciate your work, well it is just talk. I will also ask for a hefty raise (since the boss said that he appreciates my extra work and my dedication). I know I have the power to ask for such an extra raise (I will be asking for an extra up to 35%). It is time for the boss to really show the appreciation. If I get the "there is no budget" excuse, I will leave, since I am pretty sure other staff who do less work than I do earn more than double than me; and heck I am the IT leader at work; I ain't a bus boy, I run IT projects and server management (in addition to other tasks such as help desk if the IT team is short). I run one of the most difficult jobs at the organization.
arithma
Corporates will pay just a little bit more than what it takes to keep you. It's irrational for them to pay you any larger an amount than that.
If you haven't applied or asked other people in similar situations then you're not really warranted in believing you're underpaid. Don't be discouraged, because it's really easy to figure out ranges for these kinds of things by asking around. Just ask around for how much other people are taking. If you relay those results to your boss, no need to even interview, they'll start fiddling in their seats to keep you.
At any rate, it's a developer's market for sure. It's extremely hard to hire skilled people nowadays.
The other extremely dangerous topic is overwork. Simply don't do it. Don't try to prove your loyalty by staying at office. Don't try to impress anyone by overworking yourself for nothing. I have made this very mistake once before, and there's absolutely nothing about it that I don't regret. You should be using this spare time to "live". You need this energy to revitalize and keep your sanity. It is a terribly bad hole to find yourself deep into, and the bad part about it is that it is a hole big enough that people in groups fall into (peer pressure is a great factor there).
The perfect situation to find yourself psychologically is where your compensation and your performance at work is completely decoupled. That way you can always be at your top game while at it, and you'd be able to make rationale decisions about your career (changing positions, asking for raises, shopping for jobs...)
Good luck mate.
Bassem
If you are not getting paid for overtime and weekends, don't do it. As long as you know you are giving your best during working hours (a crucial point), you are doing your part.
Management will usually give you more work than you can handle; that's sadly how it works here, whether on purpose or not. It's up to you to set boundaries - again, as long as you know you're giving the job what it deserves of your energy.
When I last worked at a major development company, I'd regularly be asked to work weekends. I always said no. Then they'd offer to give me a day of during the next week, or actually pay me for working the weekend. I kept declining, and eventually they stopped asking. It didn't get me fired or anything.
rolf
Raise your standards (your minimums, if you want). If they can't / won't pay, pass... maybe look somewhere else.
Remember to remain competitive.
Kassem
@MrClass: we're so much alike! I too have been getting a lot of extra work, and things to do that are not part of my job description such as supervising the training of newly hired developers who are fresh grads or have little experience - I do enjoy doing it but it's extra work none the less. Moreover, the fact that I am not getting any time to go to the gym is really making things much worse for me because everyone who knows me on a personal level knows how much I'm *obsessed* with weight lifting and stuff like that. One thing I'm sure about though is that my management really appreciate my work and it's not just talks. Recently, a team mate left the company out of a sudden (to start his own thing). The day he handed in his resignation, the head of the department and the development manager talked to me to make sure I do not have any surprising news for them and tried to make it clear that they are willing to do anything possible to retain me. But just like you said, Christmas will show how much they are willing to give in order to retain me. I will be asking for a 50% raise, but I'm willing to settle for 35%.
@arithma: I've seen several job ads that offer a range of $1500 to $2500 to developers with 2 years of experience. Where you fall within this range is based on your skills, knowledge and dedication to your job. But anyhow, how much does a developer with 2 years of experience get paid in today's market?
About over-working myself at the office. Yes I know it's dangerous and it's actually bad for me career-wise. I could invest my free time in reading, watching screencasts or working on side projects to further expand my knowledge. And just like you said, we need some time to "live" and enjoy our time. We're humans after all, and our minds and bodies need to get some rest so we could be more productive. Totally agree with you on this one. But I honestly do not work late to impress anyone. It's partly my fault because my estimations are always off (I do not account for testing time which happens to be around %40 of development time in many cases) so I end up committing to too much work that cannot be possibly done during the actual work hours. And I just find it really irresponsible not to deliver what I committed to.
@Bassem: I've heard it at my company and from other friends working in the software development sector: paid over-time is not something common like in other sectors, especially when the organization follows an Agile methodology. We get paid for extra hours when the management cannot afford not to deliver on a certain date.
jsaade
Hi Kassem, just a friendly advice. Do not settle for a 35% raise if 50% is what you need to continue working.
Do not forget that the next raise is a year away and nobody knows what can happen in a year.
If they do not offer 50% just tell them tht honestly you will be looking elsewhere.
Speeking from my small managerial experience, it is very hard to balance between deadlines, overtime and employee satisfaction.
Words are nice to keep employees interested but companies can do a bunch of orher stuff to satisfy and make the environment friendlier.
Joe
Kassem,
Everybody here seems to be overlooking something, you seem genuinely happy at your job. This is not very common, and you should take it into account. Think about it this way: Would you rather work a crappy, soul crushing job for twice the pay?
My advice to you is not to let money become the main motivation for doing your work. Don't compare your salary to others', this is silly. You'll always hear about someone with less skill and experience than you making a lot more money. If you obsess about the salaries, it will suck the joy out of your work.
My own take on the matter is that I don't plan on becoming rich in my 20s. I'll worry about becoming rich at 40. Today, I'm much more focused on enjoying my job and finding a purpose for it. I get an average salary compared to people my age in my area of work, but that's never a problem.
Finally, here's my advice to you: I strongly encourage you to ask for a raise. No matter how much they say they care about you, your bosses will not give you more money unless you ask. Ask for it politely and nicely, no need to be over confrontational either. But more importantly, regardless of the outcome of the negotiations, don't obsess over money. You'll hate your job and yourself by the time you're 30.
MrClass
Yes Kassem, if you see 50% is reasonable and logical then do not settle with anything less. You will still think about it if you ask for less and wonder if you should have asked for what you wanted from the first place. These thoughts have to vanish till the next raise; you need to keep your mind calm and sane. Be confident in your decision; don't be hesitant about it or they will know that you're not fully convinced in what you want. I am not sure what is your company's policy regarding salary raises; is it yearly? What requirements should you fulfill to get such a raise? Also, most important Kassem, more important than money, what will happen to your official position title? Have these ideas processed in your mind before you meet your boss. I hope your boss is open minded and is fully aware of your situation.
By the way, you got to love it when the company begs you not to leave; this is what I'm talking about in my earlier post; this is where you can take advantage of the situation ;)
MrClass
Rahmu, you cannot deny that money makes one happy; at least it is true in this country. Though the issue here is not about getting rich in your 20's, it is about living your life knowing that you are not being taken advantage of. Why suddenly you have to fix everyone's stupid mistakes at work? Why are people getting dumber and you have to settle things for them? This is the problem we are facing at work.
arithma
@Rahmu: I agree with you. But you have to look at the whole spectrum of compensation for a person, to understand where Kassem is coming from. If he finds that he is being paid well below average, this is something he needs to work on. If he's being paid well within the range of people of his experience, then maybe it is a little greedy (not necessarily in a bad way) to be looking for more money.
In choices about life, you will always find people advocating a certain kind of choice, (greedy, content, workaholic..)
Joe
@Arithma: Yes, a thousand times yes.
Do not misunderstand what I said (wrote?). I strongly believe in aggressively demanding raises, and I encourage Kassem and the rest to do so. The only thing I disagree with is quitting an otherwise very good and pleasant job, for silly ego reasons like "I should be making more money than this guy".
dp0001
with a higher pay, comes more, much more pressure and supervisors are going to be breathing down your neck and micromanaging.
rtp
dp0001 - I don't think he is asking for a higher position, just a higher salary that reflect his new abilities and knowledge that he has required while working. One that reflects his increasing experience in the field.
Kassem
rahmu wroteEverybody here seems to be overlooking something, you seem genuinely happy at your job. This is not very common, and you should take it into account. Think about it this way: Would you rather work a crappy, soul crushing job for twice the pay?
Yes you are right, I'm very happy at my work and I'm not willing to leave unless another company provides me an environment as pleasant as the one I currently have and a job that is more challenging than the one I already got.
rahmu wroteMy advice to you is not to let money become the main motivation for doing your work. Don't compare your salary to others', this is silly. You'll always hear about someone with less skill and experience than you making a lot more money. If you obsess about the salaries, it will suck the joy out of your work.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not obsessing about the salary and I'm not comparing myself to any co-worker. I have a co-worker who is FAR better than I am and his salary is close to mine. I totally understand that I shouldn't compare myself to others who are probably less knowledgeable and experienced than I am and still getting a salary better than mine - this is actually a true story. The salary alone does not motivate me. Last year I was getting $900 a month, and then some small advertising agency offered me $1800 a month to lead their small team of developers. I did not hesitate to turn the offer down because the job isn't challenging enough and I would be kissing my career goodbye if I had actually took the offer.
Working on interesting projects and exploring new technologies, architectures and methodologies is what really motivates me. But, it is really depressing to be working too hard and still not getting paid "fair enough". Who defines what "fair enough" is? The market as well as the person's feeling of satisfaction. I'm not a greedy person (maybe a little), but I'm definitely someone that values fairness. Every person deserves to be rewarded with a salary (and a position) that he deserves. The reward should be on par with the person's efforts and productivity. If I deserve $500, then that's all I should be getting, but if I deserve $5000 then that's exactly what I should be getting.
MrClass wroteAlso, most important Kassem, more important than money, what will happen to your official position title?
I will be promoted to "Software Engineer".